DTD 163
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[00:00:00] This is the Drive Time debrief, episode 163.
Hey guys. Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Amanda. I'm Laura. I'm Kendra. And we do need to include a trigger warning with today's episode. We are interviewing the lovely Dr. Andrea Palmer. She is the widow of Dr. Blake Palmer, a beloved [00:01:00] surgeon who died by suicide in 2022. I'm gonna go ahead and tell you that I have already messed this up so many times just stuck in old ways of doing things. When I was communicating with Dr. Palmer, I said "committed suicide" several times, and that is no longer the best way to refer to things because words do matter. "Committed" sounds like an intentional criminal act. That is not what we're talking about today.
So the appropriate phraseology is "died of" or "died by suicide." I was just reflecting after, I've already messed this up a hundred times. We don't say like that you chose to die of lung cancer even if you smoked, you know what I mean? Like there's risk factors and such, but like we're not so aggressive about the words that we use about that. So that was something that I just wanted to put out there to help others when talking to families and other people and just the way that we think about it. Words do matter. So physician suicide is an incredibly important topic. [00:02:00] It's estimated that we lose, on average, a doc a day to suicide.
So it is important that we talk about it in depth today. If suicide, though, is a sensitive subject for you, please either listen carefully, take breaks, or you could forego this episode altogether. But if you're still with us and listening, I would love to introduce Dr. Andrea Palmer. She is an OB-GYN, currently practicing in Fort Worth, Texas, after working many years in Oklahoma. And incidentally, it turns out that she has ties to the University of Oklahoma along with Kendra and I. She was a sorority sister of mine, and it turns out she was at OU at the same time Kendra was and would've lived across the street. She is much, much younger than I am. Mm-hmm. But she was there at the same time with Kendra.
So, so excited that we were able to make this connection through mutual friends. Thank you so much, Andrea, for coming on the show and tackling this difficult subject with us. Well, thank you all for finding me. It's great to connect with you all and yeah, I'm glad to be [00:03:00] here. Yeah, kind of just a small world, but we were reminiscing right before coming on air. Just like, "Hey, did you know who, how did you know, you know, I was there too," and all these things. But just to reiterate what a community we have as physicians, as you know, even practicing in this kind of four state region. But just interesting how, I don't know, we even call the universe or the Lord just directs us into this tight-knit community.
And that's what we're here for too, is just to reiterate how important support is and community is in our profession. And we will just reiterate it in this podcast episode again, how amazing the ties that we have, the connections that we have, and how we're just here to lift each other up and support each other. So thank you Andrea, again from the bottom of my heart for being here. And why don't you tell our audience a little bit about you? How can they know you better? Yeah. So, like Amanda said, I am, I call myself a recovering obstetrician now. I stopped delivering babies just [00:04:00] over a year ago. So I'm a GYN only gynecologist now.
Congratulations. Thank you. The sleep has been amazing. I'm so happy for you. I bet. Yeah, I've not felt this good in 15 years, so.
I have a 15, almost 16-year-old daughter and a 12 and a half year old son who are just two of the smartest, most amazing, resilient fabulous little people that you'll ever meet. They're not so little anymore. They're big people, but just they are, the reason for me to keep going and getting out of bed every day.
I am a dog mom to two standard poodles who have been the best therapy dogs in the wake of losing Blake. And I am a fierce advocate for physician mental health and suicide awareness, as well as for reproductive rights. I do a lot of work in advocacy for that topic here in the state of Texas and beyond.
So those are kind of the things that are important to me [00:05:00] and speak to me at this point in my life and my career. I love that. I love that you said you're a recovering obstetrician. I think all of us are like recovering in our different specialties, but good for you to just make it a priority and I'm sure the things that you've been through really gave you clarity on what was really important and just making that a priority. Good for you. Like congratulations. That's amazing. It was. It became really, really obvious that I was worth talking with my therapist about it. You know, there's a million ways that I could have made call continue to be a feasible thing. We take in-house call, it's a 24 hour shift. You know, I could hire a babysitter, you know, like there's a million things that I could have done, but at the end of the day, I had more anxiety being at work and it just started to feel wrong and. My therapist was like, "I think you know the answer." I'm like, "I really think I do." Like that's, you know, it's just yeah. Losing a spouse will take your tolerance of, can we count on this podcast? You're we're just bullshit. That goes down to [00:06:00] nothing. And so putting up with things, it wasn't making me happy.
It wasn't serving me. I felt like I needed to be here with my kids. So it was a really great decision for me. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. We talk about self integrity all the time, and I mean, you just spelled it out right there. For anyone who wasn't clear on what we talk about by staying in integrity with yourself. Good for you. That's exactly what what we talk about, but also permission to have different phases of your career, like I think we need to normalize that a little bit. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, we would love to hear about your early days of your love story with Blake. Yeah. And how the family came about and so yeah, share all the lovely details.
So Blake and I met the first day of medical school at the University of Oklahoma. So at OU, right back, back in the day, they put us in mods. I don't know if they still do that or not, but we were in mod two 30 together. We shared an anatomy dissection body. We had all of our, how romantic, how romantic love over formaldehyde, love [00:07:00] over formaldehyde. Same for my husband and I. We share a body, Ben and I too. What is this about anatomy and the corpses? I don't know. You know, just the intense amount of time you spend, you know, with the people in your class. It's just they become like family. And so there were, you know, a handful of us that kind of studied in a group together.
And actually JB Foci, who, Kendra you probably know. She was in our mod too. And so she, Blake and I would study together all the time and eventually she was like, "I'm the third wheel here." I think she's comfortable with that though. I can see JB just being completely fine. So we officially kind of became a couple after test block ended our first semester. So over Christmas break and we just. I mean, we knew that it would probably have to work out for the long term, if not at least the short term, because we spent so much time together that like we really had no choice. Like if even if we broke up, we were not going to not have to see each other. And so, we, got engaged our fourth year of med school. We got married the weekend after graduation and started our intern years together. Blake, you know, when we both started medical school, we kind of both thought that we might end up doing general surgery. I quickly decided that I felt like the OB GYN residents were far happier than the general surgery residents.
And I kind of got suckered in by OB and I just, I loved taking care of women and so that was really, it was a natural calling after I really thought about it. And Blake decided that urology was where he wanted to go. And so, we settled in and did our residency together. We had our oldest my chief year, so his fourth year in April before residency ended in the summer.
And I went into private practice. Blake stayed on and did a pediatric fellowship at OU. And then was part of faculty at OU. In early days of 2016 he was getting burned out with the academic [00:09:00] life, with publishing pressure and you know, getting passed over for promotion and the politics of academics was just, that is not a game he enjoyed playing. And so, he had an opportunity to come to Fort Worth where we are now, and work at a private hospital down here that was not academically based. And so he came down here and he had a few like, niche things that he did. He did pediatric kidney transplants and he did robotic surgery which is not in the pediatric urology world, like those are, those are pretty kind of like micro, specialized things. And so he brought those programs here to Fort Worth and was super successful. He eventually became chairman of the department at his hospital. And you know, he was the guy that people went to when they needed somebody to say yes.
Which I think, you know, ultimately was part of his downfall. He was a wonderful [00:10:00] surgeon, just incredibly gifted hands. He really had the ability to connect with patients. Patients loved him, parents loved him. You know, pediatrics was always a natural thing for him because he sometimes had the maturity of a 12-year-old boy, so he could really connect with his, with his patients, and, you know, everything. It's probably not that unique, right. So he was just beloved by staff. He was, you know, good and true friends with the nurses and the scrub techs and you know, he never felt like he was better than anybody 'cause he was a physician. I think he probably had a fair amount of imposter syndrome that he never was really able to articulate of like, "I don't know that I belong here even."
But, you know, he had his struggles. He was, retrospectively, a wildly undiagnosed ADHD sufferer. You know, if the TikTok revolution of adult ADHD getting diagnosed might have happened a few years sooner, like I seriously wonder if that wouldn't have like [00:11:00] gotten one or both of us. We joked about it all the time. You know, he couldn't sit still. He's, you know, he would have what I now know is hyper focus. And you know, the more that I've learned about it, the more I realized that he really was suffering from that, that led to hundreds of undone charts and his inability to dial in and focus meant that number was always growing and that really bothered him. And obviously it bothered his employers too 'cause if the charts aren't closed, you can't get paid. Mm-hmm. But he was not one to ask for help. And when he did ask for help, it honestly wasn't met with a very positive response with things like a scribe, you know, somebody to help him do those things.
And so, he just got, you know, covered up with responsibility. He got behind to a point that he couldn't see a way out of.
The day before he died, he had a fairly serious complication in surgery that I [00:12:00] didn't know about until after the fact. You know, being a two physician family, we talked about all of our highs and lows at work pretty freely. But he'd been sick. He'd had, you know, not Covid 'cause we did a home test, but it, he had some kind of viral illness that week. And you know, when he went to work on, the day before he died, he was sick as a dog. Like he probably had a fever, but he didn't take his temperature. And, you know, he had this complication that I'm sure he beat himself up for, for not only having the complication, but for making the decision to operate when he shouldn't have, when he knew he, you know, didn't feel his best.
And then on the day he died he told me he was gonna stay home from work and rest. And because he was still feeling bad and I was like, "I'm so proud of you. Like, okay thank you for taking a day off. You need this, you need to rest, you need to recover." And he, after I got the kids to school and went to work, he went and purchased a gun and died by [00:13:00] a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Yeah. So, you know, so many layers, so many things. You know, we lived in Texas as a state without a waiting period to buy a handgun. Mm-hmm. The data on suicidality and gun access is so clear that a 72 hour waiting period decreased the suicide rates. I don't remember the number off the top of my head, but I think it's like by 40% or 60% or something like that.
And you know, it's suicidal ideation is a same thought for so many, but when you look at physicians as a whole, Amanda, you said in the opening we lose a physician a day in 2023, we lost 400 and something physicians to suicide. Oh gosh. Physicians are really good at dying by suicide. You know, we have knowledge of anatomy, we have knowledge of toxins. We have, you know, knowledge of physiology that gives us an edge on and an expertise. Physicians are more likely to complete suicide than [00:14:00] non-physicians, a very significant margin. So it's just, we really have the perfect storm for risk when we talk about physicians and suicide because of all the expectations, you know, the weight of the things that we do and the jobs that we have, it's a lot.
Yeah. Yeah. That is so like, I'm just imagining this man you're describing and, if only, it's like, if only that day he could see himself, like the way you describe him. And it's so, it's so interesting how we've seen this over and over again in cases of physician suicide, how the fatigue or the illness or the pressure of, you know, a bad outcome or a malpractice case or too many charts just sends them into this rabbit hole of distorted thinking. Right. That it's just not rational and Yeah. And then [00:15:00] it's shame and it's, mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And then add to that impulsivity of ADHD, like, which actually a lot of physicians have ADHD.
Yeah. It goes right along with giftedness. Mm-hmm. You see a lot of those things tied together, so. Yeah, I listened to a podcast about that just yesterday actually. Mm-hmm. And you know, again, retrospectively, I'm giving him all these diagnoses that my children actually have now. Right? Like both of my kids are medicated for ADHD.
The beautiful thing was that my kids and I all had a therapist before Blake died. We all were plugged in for one reason or another. My youngest actually started therapy originally because he is an incredible perfectionist, and he would beat himself up literally and emotionally when he made a mistake.
He's also an incredibly gifted little piano player, and if he would sit down to practice and get one note wrong, it would devolve into a [00:16:00] complete and utter meltdown. And so once we got him medicated, and not only for anxiety, but also for his ADHD, his internal monologue is so much more kind to himself.
He is so much more able to give himself grace and to be like, "Oh, that was just a mistake. Here I go, I'm gonna keep going." And of course, you know, I try to model that and Blake tried to model that when he was alive, but it's really hard to outrun that voice in your head. It's telling you that you're stupid, that you aren't worthy, that everybody is gonna figure out you're a failure and a fake and you have no business doing the things that you're doing.
And I just, you know the arc of how I felt about his death. You know, at first I was just so mad. I was angry, truly beyond words. He died just a few days before my son's 10th birthday. And I was just pissed. I was so angry. I thought he was so [00:17:00] selfish and, you know, how could he do this and leave me here to like, pick the pieces up.
But the more that I've worked through it, the more that I've learned. I just have so much compassion for his mindset because to be able to leave all that, he had to be able to walk away from these amazing children and from his wonderful wife, you know, like how the best, how, you know, whatever he was feeling, had to feel so bad.
So oppressive and so heavy that he literally couldn't see another way out. And so I still get pissed sometimes. I still get mad, but I spend a lot more time now feeling compassion towards him and just feeling sad that, trying to even imagine the way that he felt when he, it just breaks my heart.
Yeah. Thank you, Andrea, for being so authentic though, in how you felt. I think a lot of people would [00:18:00] be feeling, you know, shamed, just being mad. And thank you for just having the granularity to be like, "Yeah, I was really pissed. I was really pissed at first." Yeah. And now as I work through this just to have the compassion for yourself to be authentic. I mean, holding such amazing space for yourself to work through all that, to be like, "Yeah, I'm still pissed sometimes." And that's okay because this is the truth. This is who gets left behind and how it's gonna get worked out. And so thank you for your courage and bravery 'cause I know this is gonna speak to quite a few of our listeners today just to almost give them permission because you're being so honest and authentic, they're gonna be like, "Oh yeah, I was pissed too." And like, that's okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, also for anyone who's listening, who has considered suicide, or is considering that, just listen to like the temporariness of whatever that [00:19:00] moment that you're feeling that or you're thinking that. Give yourself a waiting period. Call for help. Take a shower. Go for a walk. You know, eat some food, take a nap. Like there's so many things you need to do before you make a decision that can't be taken back, and that has unimaginable consequences for the people left behind.
I've done a lot of therapy. A lot of therapy, but part of it has been a therapy framework called Internal Family Systems. Mm-hmm. Yep. And you know, anything about IFS, it's all about our parts, right? And yes, suicidal ideation is just a part, like, that's the other thing I want people to remember. If they're having these thoughts, like it's just a part of you that feels this way. And sometimes it gets very loud and sometimes it gets very big and it's just trying to put out the fire like it is trying to protect you, but it is not acting in a rational way. And it's probably not acting in alignment with your values and you know, if you can remember that it's [00:20:00] just a part and try to get a little space from it.
Try to figure out what it's scared of, try to figure out why it feels the way that it feels. Give you some clarity on other options for managing the very intense feelings that it's trying to shield you from. Yeah, and it's probably literally a part of your brain. It's probably literally coming from your left amygdala.
We talk about that with our clients and in our course a lot that inner critic is not true. It's not actually you, it's your brain in a twisted way trying to keep you safe from rejection and mm-hmm. So it's important to not, not believe the false narrative that it presents. Yeah. So the day that he died, how did you find out?
So, in Fort Worth, we have a hospital kind of district. So we have my hospital, we have the children's hospital, and then the other like tertiary care facility. He chose to die [00:21:00] essentially in front of the ER at that hospital where one of our good friends and his roommate from medical school is actually the director of the ED.
So he was actually not at work. He and his family were in Disney World of all places. But they called him, he had on scrubs on his badge from work, and so they called my friend Vish and said one of the pediatric urologists has killed himself in front of the emergency room. And so his wife actually texted me. She's like, "Is Blake okay?" And I'm like, "He's home sick. Why?" And that's...
Why do you think he didn't reach out for help?
I think he was ashamed. I think he had gone so far into like spiraling into, I don't think he thought he deserved help. I think he truly thought that he wasn't [00:22:00] good enough to receive it. I think that he was just so, he was just completely lost in that negative self image that I don't think that he thought that he deserved to get help or that he could be helped.
So heartbreaking. You mentioned your kids being medicated for ADHD. My kids also are medicated for ADHD and this is part of why is because I did not want them to grow up with a negative self-concept because of the different way that their brain worked. Yeah, and like when I'm hearing what you're saying with him is that he is taking responsibility for a lot of stuff that just wasn't his fault.
He's making it mean things about him that are not true, and he's this incredible, incredible human being and physician and gifted healer. Just had a bunch of wrong stories about himself. Yeah. Yeah. And [00:23:00] I, you know, I get mad because I'm like, "You're smart. You are a smart guy. Like one of the smartest people I've ever met. Absolutely. Like how you could be so dumb in your concept of who you are and what people think of you and your value and your worth." Like he, I think he felt like all of his worth was in his work and all of his value was because of what he did and when he had what he felt like was such a grave mistake, that he lost all of his value and his worth if he can't be the surgeon who makes miracles happen.
I just try to tell, tell my kids every day that like, you're worthy because you exist. Like your existence on this earth. It's all that you need to be worthy of love. Exactly. Exactly. And you were a lovely human before you ever went to med school. I don't know why we forget that, you know, but that shame spiral that mm-hmm.
I've been in one before it's all consuming. So please, listeners, if you are even starting to go into a shame [00:24:00] spiral or if you're in one, Brené Brown says it cannot exist in the light. Talk, reach out, talk. This happens to lots of us. It's not just you, but it's so important to like develop some skills for what to do when we are in a shame spiral 'cause we are perfectionistic a lot. Yeah. Yeah. We honor you so much for taking this like unimaginably horrible, terrible event and turning it into something that could help others. From what you have learned from this experience, what are things that we all need to know about physician suicide?
So, I think there's a couple. One of the biggest protectors for suicide risk is connection. And what you guys alluded to in the beginning of the podcast, community and connection are huge, huge protective factors. I have been incredibly lucky in both of my [00:25:00] practice settings, both in Oklahoma City and in my work here in Fort Worth. And frankly, this started for me in residency. My residency program coordinator or director on our first day of residency, our intern day, day one set us down and said, "Never go down alone. You are never on an island here. There is always help. There is always someone who will come and who will help you and your, you know, your need will be met with compassion and in an educational manner."
And I mean, was it always true? No. Like there was a, it was not sunshine and rainbows 24/7. You said it at least, right? Yeah, but I knew that there was at least one person that I could call and say "I need help. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm over my head. I am scared. I messed up." Like, you know, I knew that I had permission to be a human being in residency and Blake was never given that permission explicitly.
And then, you know, in an academic [00:26:00] job and then transitioning even to a private or a hospital employed but not academic. His colleagues were competition instead of collaboration. I operate with my partners all the time. We, you know, take care of each other, both in the office and out of the office. You know, "So-and-so can pick up my kid. I'm gonna cover you so you can go do this." Like we have a friendship as well as a partnership at work. And Blake didn't. He tried to cultivate it, but like, it just, it, it wasn't ever there. He never had somebody who he could connect with and be like, "Dude, this thing just happened and it was awful. Like, what, what, what do I do?" And, you know, he had me, but it's not the same as kind of an, you know, a more objective friend. And so, cultivate your community. If you are not in a practice where you have partners that are also friends, like fix that, you know, whether it's online or [00:27:00] whether it's through a podcast, you know, there's so many avenues that we can reach out and connect with people.
That connection is a huge protective factor. And so that would be my first recommendation. I think everybody needs a therapist. I love my therapist with my whole heart. I could not have survived. You went through medical training. Yeah. I could not have survived my, the last three years of my life without her.
So I think everybody needs a therapist. I think we need to de-stigmatize mental illness. I think that we need to start talking about our depression and our anxiety and I think credentialing forms need to stop asking us if we have a mental illness because A, everybody lies, and B, it's only a deterrent for care.
Preach. So, you know, there's a lot, and it's not just one thing, right? Like, it's not one thing that drives people to make this choice. It is a million little insults. It's death by a thousand cuts. And so it's gonna have to be, you know, a little bandaid here and a little bandaid there, [00:28:00] and a little bit of humanity here. And you know, so it's gonna, it's a revolution. It's gonna take communities like this. It's gonna take people talking about it for us to turn the tide. Yeah. I love that you said that not only about the community, but just like a little bit of humanity here and there. 'Cause that's something we all can do.
Yeah. It's not, it doesn't take a license or any kind of special training to offer space to be human. I mean, that is something that, I'm so glad that you said and you know, go ahead and say it louder for the people in the back 'cause like we could repeat that humanity is what makes us the amazing physicians that we are, and probably one of the leading characteristics of why we went into medicine. Like we wanna take care of humanity and the reason we do such a good job is because we're human. We feel, we have, you know, our highs and lows and ups and downs, and I am fully, fully thinking that these aren't major things that you're saying. These aren't things that require a ton of [00:29:00] money and a ton of manpower. Like this is something that all of us could do. Now that you're aware, 'cause you can't say you're not aware, now you're aware. So yeah. Offering space for humanity and like you said, talking about it, is probably gonna move the needle more than anything else. Mm-hmm. So, it's an unfortunate statistic that many of us may eventually know a doctor who dies by suicide.
Andrea, what advice would you give for coping to the survivors? Therapy, first and foremost. You know, when you lose somebody by suicide it thins the herd of people in your circle pretty substantially. But the people who are there, the people who stick, like that's, I mean, that's what makes life okay.
Suicide is such a shame filled topic that seeking out, again, community and finding people who have been through [00:30:00] the same thing. You know, at first I thought misery loves company, but it just turns out there's beauty in being seen and there's beauty in being known and there's beauty in a kinship to having felt the same feelings and gone through the same situations. You know, social media has its drawbacks. But one of the beautiful things about social media are like the groups that are out there for physicians. There's a physician widows group, believe it or not. Within that group, I've been able to identify my subset of fellow female physicians whose spouse died by suicide.
You know, I've formed friendships with women I've never met in real life. There's some of us who are taking a trip this fall. You know, it's again, it's all about community. I think it's about connection and getting connected to people who don't hold shame for that situation, but can hold compassion for you, I think has been really, really powerful.
It's amazing. You know, I wish that you were the first person that we have ever met [00:31:00] that lost an incredibly close loved one to suicide, but given the numbers, it's not the case. We spoke with another doc, Dr. Michelle Chevi, who lost her - same story, just incredible radiologist sister Gretchen, to suicide. And in her situation, themes included, like sleep deprivation, being short staffed and working more than she should have, not wanting to let anyone down. Mm-hmm. And you would think that the day after she died by suicide, the hospital would've shut down. I mean, that's what it feels like should happen.
But no, the hospital just kept on rolling. What was it like with Blake's work? I'm seeing a face. Yeah. I think I know what you're gonna say. Yeah. So the day, like when he died and they, we figured this all out. I went to the other hospital where he had died in front of, and they took me into like a, you know, one of the workrooms at the ER and the chaplain came and the police came and, you know, answering all these [00:32:00] questions and his hospital administrator showed up.
And my frustration and my disdain for the administration, their administration had like mm-hmm. predated his death. And I just said "I don't want them here right now. Like, this is not the time or the place for them to like approach me."
I got one phone call from them two days after he died, letting us know we'd be off our health insurance in six days. Oh. And then I got a second phone call about a month later saying that, "Oops, they had paid him and they were gonna need their money." You have gotta be kidding. And that is the only significant contact I've had from them.
You know, people donated money in his name to the hospital and to, oh. Just, I tried to direct people to the Lorna Green Foundation. I tried to direct people to donate to the University of Oklahoma. Like I, but people donated to Cook. You know, I often have thought if he would've died in a car accident or had a sudden [00:33:00] cardiac event, they would've named a damn hospital wing after him.
He was so adored at the institution that, you know, monuments would have been erected in his name. Mm-hmm. But because this was suicide and because I think they feel responsible, they just, you know, absolutely no contact, absolutely no recognition. Physicians within their institution have talked about Blake. They have done wellness luncheons. They have tried to not sweep him under the rug and to keep his memory alive, but the administration has not been a part of that or helpful or any of those things. Just think that highlights to the importance of we're going to have to start help seeking behaviors ourselves.
Like we are so much more important than our job. We are so much more important than the flawlessness that we are, we're so much bigger [00:34:00] than just medicine and I don't know, I think we're gonna have to wake up to that fact en masse. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And hospitals don't care about us like. No. Right. Like they don't care. They care about their bottom line. They care about the community image, they care about their PR, but they don't really care about us. Not very many of them do, at least. Yeah, and that's just an unfortunate and uncomfortable stark reality of the business of medicine in the United States. I do love that you shared how your group is "Never go down alone." I think that needs to be reiterated over and over and over again. There's so many ER docs that are hesitant to call a consult and look stupid. There's so many people who are worried about the op. There's so many of us that are hesitant to reach out for help because we might be judged.
We've gotta get over that and just start connecting with each other. Right? And you might be the first [00:35:00] one in your institution to start modeling that behavior. And it's gonna be weird, but it's gonna be for the greater good that we have those connections and allowed to be human. That's what it ultimately comes down to, is I feel like we're not allowed to be human a lot. Which leads me into, there's so many of the characteristics that you mentioned about Blake, that lots of us have: performance based worth, relentless self-criticism, toxic martyrdom, resistance to help seeking behaviors. Even ADHD, a lot of us are walking around undiagnosed.
What would you tell somebody listening who has a lot of the same characteristics Blake did? I think getting a diagnosis, if you have an inkling that you may have anxiety, depression, ADHD, like the value in the power of being able to name something and to [00:36:00] either use something like a medication or use a coach, or use some kind of system to make your life less frustrating and more functional. Like it is so worth it. It is entirely worth it, and it's okay if you have to take a day off to go see somebody. You know, Blake would never take a day off.
He didn't go to the dentist. He didn't, you know, he went to the dentist like every five years. I'm like, "You are gross. This is like, you need to go." You never cavity. So he never went to the dentist. Like he wouldn't take time off to go see a doctor. He wouldn't take time off to go to therapy, certainly, like that was not happening. Because he wouldn't even take time off when he was sick. So when ostensibly he thought that he was well. Like taking time off to go see a physician was just like, that's not even something he could comprehend doing.
And so we have to know that like we are as important as the work that we do. And we can only do the work if we're well, like we can't sustain. Like, pick your analogy, but like, you can't run off an empty tank. You can't like you can't pour from an empty cup, like whatever you wanna do, you have to take care of yourself.
And we didn't learn that in medical school. We didn't really learn it in residency. And I think, again, I think there's a revolution that's starting that people are starting to realize that like, and not like self-care, like go take a bubble bath, but like really truly taking care of yourself is important.
Physical activity is important. You know, getting an annual physical is important. Deep. Yeah. I mean all, all of these things. Yeah. Because. Now we have two examples. Gretchen's hospital didn't shut down when she was unfortunately not able to show up ever again for her work. It's the same with Blake. Yeah.
Why we think that we can't take a day off to go take care of ourselves is not based in reality. Right. Because they clearly don't take a day off for us, so, right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. No. And Andrea, I can't imagine the feeling of betrayal. You must have felt when they're calling you, like how dare they call you and tell you you're gonna be off your health insurance in six days?
Yeah, yeah. There were some, f bombs dropped to the poor person who's not, it was not their decision. It wasn't their fault. They were only the messenger. And I was completely, I mean, I. I did not hold my tongue with the ire that came out of my mouth. I just was like, "Are you fucking kidding me? Like this is, this is the phone call I get from you guys. This is what you like. You know, after all that he gave, after all that, he sacrificed, you have no health insurance in six days." That's the message you're sending me. I mean, it's just, I.
Yeah. And you're allowed, and it sounds like, oh, please. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Fully, fully rich or muted. So, yep, you're allowed, and I mean, I'm sure anyone was, is relating to that. Like if that's all you did was F-bombs, like I think you're Yeah. But in the game. Gosh. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story.
If somebody wanted to reach out and learn more about you, is there a way to do that? Yeah, so, my professional Instagram is at phenom Andrea, F-E-N-O-M. That's the name of our practice. Andrea. You can put my email in. If you have like show notes or whatever, but it's Andrea B. Palmer at gmail.com.
My work email's encrypted and a big old pain in the butt. So just hit me up on my Gmail if you need anything. Cool. Well, are there any closing thoughts before we wrap it up? Well thank you guys. Thank you for making this topic. Important enough to talk about again, for you all. Thank you for allowing me to tell Blake's story.
It's kind of my way of being able to keep him alive and in the conversation and make his life and his death more than about his death. And yeah, for anybody out there who's having thoughts of suicide, just know that all the things we said earlier, these are temporary and it's just a part of you and there's help to be had.
9, 8, 8 is the National Suicide Hotline. You can call, you can text 24 7 and getting the help is worth it.
Yeah. That's amazing. Thank you, Andrea. I echo and. Just really applaud you for your bravery and courage. It is not easy to be the one in the aftermath and having to, you know, make, like you said, you know, beauty from ashes. I mean, not only are you, you know, advocating for things that align with your values, which is an amazing example to all of us, but just being brave enough to. To talk about it, to make it known, and to also offer up, you know, the authenticity of what it looks like to go through something like this. So, like we said, if someone was even thinking about it, feeling in the depths of despair, hopelessness you know, there are. Very, very close and quick avenues of help.
And even if you don't feel validated in the moment that you should be feeling this way, reach out. Do it anyways. Like just get an inkling of courage. If you've heard anything from Andrea today, just take that step. You know, even if it's an unfamiliar place for you to be. Just reach out and we know just like she said, 9, 8, 8, there's a free, confidential physician support line that we actually are very happy to support financially.
We believe in it. The physician support line was set up four years ago. They're celebrating a birthday on Doctor's day. And shout out to all of our doctors that we're celebrating this week, but that is there on purpose. Because we cannot tolerate the suffering of our colleagues. And just like Andrea said, community is the thing that will create the closeness, the comradery, the support that we need within specialties, but across our profession.
So that physician support line, if you're not familiar, is on the socials, but the number is 1-8-8-4-0-9-0-1-4-1 and just like we talked about, the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline, you can call or text 9-8-8 and you know, from the bottom of our hearts. And we say this at the close of every podcast, you're so much more than your job.
We see you, we do see you, you are seen, we hear you, and you're very worth it. So thank you for joining us today for this delicate subject, but we do know that it is that important to us to get the word out and to talk about it as much as possible. So, like Andrea said, it is normalized. It's a just a thing like you're a good physician and who's your therapist? Right? And if you're feeling, you know, maybe not necessarily suicidal or that hopeless or in despair, but you are feeling overworked, unappreciated, overwhelmed, fried, we always talk about being deeply crispy, fried in the dumpster fire. Know that we at the whole physician are here. Please use the link in the show notes to schedule a free wellness coaching session.
This is a one-on-one session with another physician that trusts me. Has been there, done that. And we offer this safe space for the vulnerability that you may not have ever experienced or even knew about until now. So please click the link in the show notes and we'd love to meet with you. And as always you are whole.
You are a gift to medicine truly. And the work you do matters. See you next time.
