A: Hey guys. Welcome to the podcast. I am Amanda.
L: I'm Laura.
K: And I'm Kendra.
AD: And just a reminder, this is the part where I'm annoying to scroll down and hit five stars. Leave a review. We are at like 13-14,000 downloads and a total of 24 ratings. So to get it in front of other people, just scroll down. I know you're listening, but just click the stars so other people can find us easier. So today we're gonna talk about financial wellness. That is one of the things that we think is very crucial for our wellbeing. It's a huge advantage in preventing burnout. So many of our clients have felt stuck at some point, and that was 100% me. So we're gonna start highlighting some of the things other people are doing outside of clinical medicine. Dr. Kenton Allen is joining us today to talk about his journey co-founding Doc2Doc Lending. He also serves as the Vice Chairman for the Department of Anesthesiology at Wentworth Douglass Hospital in Dover. He was elected as President to Health Partners of New Hampshire, which is a physician hospital organization that serves over 50 practices across the state's Seacoast region. Dr. Allen's training includes Dartmouth Medical School, the Tuck School of Business, and he did residency in Anesthesiology, Perioperative and Pain Medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts. Kenton, thank you so much for joining us.
KA: Amanda, the pleasure's mine. Thanks so much for hosting me today and letting me be part of the podcast here.
LC: So Kenton, would you just tell us and our audience a little bit about yourself?
KA: Sure. Yeah. Well, as Amanda introduced, I'm originally from New Hampshire area. Went to college in Massachusetts at Holy Cross, and then spent some time at the National Institute of Health. I wasn't sure if I wanted to do clinical medicine or benchtop research, and that helped me pave the path to, to going into clinical medicine. And went to Dartmouth for medical school. And at the time I was at medical school, they were trying to develop an MD/MBA dual degree program and couldn't get, couldn't get a lot of people excited about it. And I was, and so I joined the program there and got a little bit of background with, you know, with business and finances through that experience. And did my residency in Boston, as Amanda said. Right around that time, we started a family my last year in medical school. I married my wife who was a nurse at the hospital up at Dartmouth, and we moved together to Boston. Had two kids during residency and for me that, that period in my life. When I look back at it, the most stressful parts of it weren't necessarily the clinical rigors, but the financial stresses that were on me and my family trying to keep all of our goals on track.
And so from there, you know, from residency. Went and did fellowship back at Dartmouth and then settled down here in New Hampshire. And as you said, to supplement my clinical time, I do some work with the New Hampshire Medical Society and some advocacy work. And then dedicate a fair bit of my time to Doc2Doc Lending. And I've found that being able to change those hats and kind of the part of my brain that is utilized in each of those roles has led to a lot of professional satisfaction. Whereby, you know, any one of those, I think over time, could be more draining and kind of less engaging. Being able to switch and transition and think of things a little bit differently has been really valuable. And I've learned a lot of lessons from people I've come in contact with, from each of those realms along the way too.
I now have three daughters and coach one of them in flag football and play tennis myself. That's what I do outside of my professional time. So, so yeah, so again, happy.
AD: That makes me wildly happy. I love that. That's awesome.
LC: Yes. I also love that I like to do a lot of different things too, and I totally get what you're saying about having a variety of different things to keep your brain happy. That's awesome.
AD: Yeah. So, Laura started a school, so, you know. Just on the side. Just a K through 12 school. No big deal.
KA: Wow. That's impressive Laura.
AD: It is.
LC: So tell me what got you interested in starting a business like Doc2Doc Lending?
KA: Yeah. Well, you know there were two components to it really. One was, you know, one was in line with what I was saying before, that I found there was- kind of engaging that business side of the brain- made the time that I was in the hospital working clinically a lot more enjoyable. And I knew that I wanted to have a way of keeping those skills and that, kind of, type of thinking sharp. And then the second was the opportunity. And there are a few things that came across that would've, I think, fulfilled that objective and given me that opportunity to use that type of thinking. But what was unique about Doc2Doc is that it was based upon the stress that I went through, you know.
So Doc2Doc, basically, we're a company that believes doctors are mispriced in the lending market. And, you know, my story was when I moved to Boston, I had about $250,000 of student loan debt. I was making $54,000 a year as a resident. We had two daughters, as I said. We were living in Boston where our rent was over $2,000 a month. And my wife was a nurse and supported me through medical school and wanted to get an additional degree herself. And if we were gonna, kind of, have all those things happen concurrently, the math just didn't add up. You know, we couldn't. Daycare alone, for my wife to go back to school would've taken up, you know, almost my entire salary between the rent and the daycare payments. And so.
And so we looked at ways to supplement my salary. And it was really frustrating to find that I was viewed as a really high risk borrower. And I was high risk because I carried a lot of debt and had a relatively depressed income. Had an immature FICO score because I hadn't collected a salary yet, really. And so banks didn't wanna touch me. And the few that were open to it, you know, were offering me interest rates that, that were pretty much in line with credit cards. You know, into the high teens-20 percents and you know, seemed predatory. And so my solution was to use credit cards and to go to my family for support, which was really humbling cuz I was in my, you know, almost mid thirties at the time. And, was fortunate to have families that really supported me. You know, both financially and kind of emotionally. And to have to continue to ask for support was again really humbling.
And so, when I started talking about that experience, I was surprised to find the number of my peers and colleagues who had similar experiences. That for one reason or another needed to borrow money at different points in their career, oftentimes early on in their career. And were viewed as high risk despite the fact that, you know, at least in our residency program from day one, we had, you know, lucrative job offers. Kind of people were coming to recruit us for salaries that were really high.
And so we founded Doc2Doc based on the belief that physicians are unique, and that these traditional metrics that banks use to assess risk aren't really appropriate for our niche population. And so we, in general, are able to underwrite things differently. We look at financial credit profiles differently. And for the most part, particularly in the early stages of the career, it allows us to offer more competitive rates than the general population. So it was that alignment between what the company was trying to solve and what my experience had been that led me to jump at that opportunity and start that company. We started with one of my co-residents. And in residency we founded it, and he's amazing as well. So it was the right opportunity and, you know, the right people.
LC: That's cool. So, as you guys have been working with Doc2Doc Lending, have you noticed that there are regional differences in lending practices among banks? Because I don't, I mean, in the south we, we didn't have any of those kinds of issues in terms of interest rates. The banks kind of saw the residents as good potential clients.
AD: But Laura, we did- because that was my same experience too, but it was before that first housing bubble crash. Where they had to shore up all…
LC: Because we're so old. Is that what you're saying?
AD: We are. We are so old. But I, because they were throwing money, and I remember thinking like, I'm uncomfortable with this amount of money. Why are they doing this? And then everything crashed and whatever, 2004/2007 or whatever that was. Do you have a response to that or do you think it's just cuz we're old?
KA: Yeah. No, there is some regional variability, but even more so than regional variability, it's it's use case variability, right? So, when you look at student loan versus mortgage lending versus personal lending, which is primarily what we do is personal lending. The ability to have access to have money and have access to money at rates that, you know, are “fair.” It varies more by the use case.
So for student lending, there's really good national options for refinancing, regardless of where you are. Mortgages, there's a lot more regionality to lending. And banks that prefer certain regions for either- for market conditions or because that's where they, that's where they have a stronger or less strong presence. But in general, mortgage rates, you’ll, be able to get a competitive mortgage rate. Less so is personal lending, which is much more variable. And, and again, that's where we felt the inefficiency was the strongest. And it's primarily what we do at Doc2Doc Lending.
AD: So my understanding of a personal loan is that it's not contingent on your mortgage. Or like, you're not leveraging anything. So it's a higher rate, but it's a much lower rate than like a credit card. Cuz I'm just thinking back. I got married in residency. And I put part of my wedding on the credit card. So like, maybe that would've been. And I've heard of people like putting their IVF. Like what are some of the things that people would use a personal loan for? And is that right? That it's a different sort of rate?
KA: Yeah. It's- you described it well. So it's different from mortgages or car loans or even educational loans in that it's unsecured, meaning that there's no asset that backs it. So in those other examples, if someone were to stop paying their loan and default on the loan, there would be an asset that, in this case, the lending institution would have a claim on, be it the house, a car. In the case of lending, it's the government that secures those. A personal loan; there's no asset to back it. You know, we're just saying that you're credit worthy because of who you are. You can use the money for whatever you want to. Because there's no asset to back it, as you said, the interest rates are higher than those asset-backed loans but generally are much more favorable than a credit card.
So, some of the reasons why people come to us. Transitions is really common. So fourth year medical students who need to get from Boston to San Francisco. And, you know, pay a first, last and security deposit in San Francisco can, you know, can cost an arm and a leg. And just to get your feet on the ground and get to day one of residency is really expensive. And educational loans aren't available for that purpose. In residency, you know, that was my situation. Where, that's when I kind of felt distressed the most. And there's a lot of use cases there. We do a lot of credit card consolidation in those phases for people who are looking to improve their credit profile for when they go and ultimately get a mortgage or buy into a practice and have a really large loan, where even a few percentage points can make a huge difference in terms of what the cost of that loan is over a long time. And so making sure that credit profile is as strong as possible by refinancing their credit card debt. And then, and you mentioned IVF. That's actually been a, that's actually been kind of an unforeseen use that we've supported through our loan program. Either cryo-preservation or surrogacy, you know, can cost up to $50,000. And so we've supported some folks in those efforts. And then the use case for once you kind of get into your practice is the most variable.
And you know, as part of our application process, we have a panel of six doctors. And we offer to speak with everyone who applies for a loan. And so, you know we hear some amazing stories of what people are trying to achieve. Some of them tragic, some of them kind of really inspirational. But more and more a lot of what we're hearing are people looking to do entrepreneurial sorts of activities, you know, either through their medical practice or adjacent to their medical practice or completely separate from the medical practice. And in getting some initial seed funding to get those initiatives off the ground can be difficult as well, but it's something that we do a lot to support too.
KM: That's fantastic. So are there any other financial principles you've learned that would be good to share with our audience? And knowing that mostly it's physicians or attending physicians, but we also have quite a few med students and residents listening.
KA: Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's so again, this, you know basing my response on conversations I've had with folks at each of those stages. You know, if transitioning from fourth year of medical school into residency, you know, really taking that mindset of just developing some positive financial habits and taking the time to educate yourself. You know there's really great communities out there, you know, such as this, that you can learn from people who have been through this. And taking the time to learn about, you know, what the typical career trajectory is, and what people are doing financially at different stages of those trajectories is a really good use of time. Particularly at that stage when you go from accumulating debt to collecting a salary. And then even though those salaries are relatively depressed to what you earn in the bulk of your career, developing the habits at that point that you carry throughout your career makes the- it makes doing those same things when the numbers are larger that much easier because you've been doing it already. And so developing the habits, and these are things like, you know taking advantage of tax-advantaged funds during residency. Learning what they are and what they mean. And where in the order of priority each one is. If you can afford, you know, only one or two. Well, why are you leaving out the third? Right? And being able to understand those well enough to make those decisions going from residency, getting into practice.
What I've found, people oftentimes don't take the time to do, is understand their own priorities. You know, oftentimes, at that point of the career, you're balancing paying off debt, building wealth, and then enjoying life, I guess, for lack of a better term. And how each of those rank in terms of priority. You know, there's people that highly value being debt free because of the freedom it offers them in terms of how they work. To not have to work to make payments. And even if that debt is a low interest rate debt, there's a lot of empowerment to not having it on the books. For other people, the priority is building the most amount of wealth possible, right? And in that case, you can earn a higher interest rate by investing that money, than you can paying off that lower interest rate debt. And if that's your priority, you know, you're taking a 25-30 year view, and you ultimately want to come out of that period of time with the most wealth possible, well then you're gonna, you're gonna devalue paying off that debt and start investing more early. And then there are some people that, you know, feel like they've had their nose to the grindstone for so long. You know, they've, they're finally earning a full paycheck, and they really wanna do the things that they love the most. You know, travel to Europe six times a year. And those kind of competing tensions of doing one versus the other. It's a lot easier to make those decisions and be confident in those decisions and sleep well at night if you understand your own priorities. And, you know, taking that time to formally recognize them. And if you're in a situation where you have a spouse or a kid, you know, talk about them because they're not always the same for one spouse to the next. And then finding a way that you're gonna meet somewhere in the middle. That's really the time, I think, to do that and make sure that you understand it. Because otherwise it can lead to some discontent later on.
KM: Yeah, that's really good. I like how you made the point to say, you know, putting those priorities first, really having those discussions early. You know, maybe not during residency, maybe when you kind of get your feet on the ground and shortly after you do start receiving that full paycheck. But I think we find a lot with our clients too. The pressure of just having to work. Like they say that in their mind. “I have to work” because I have to pay kids tuition or cars or whatever. And I do think that is a major contribution to just burning out. Just the exhaustion and the tiring. The mental energy you have to put constantly in, you know, your financial situations. The developing good habits early and then deciding what your priorities are. I think those are really two key things I heard you say that are really important. I think our listeners will really take away. So what advice do you have for our audience that may be interested in this or maybe other ideas for alternative income streams?
KA: Yeah. For folks who are interested in you know, in kind of non-clinical or clinical adjacent type of activities. You know, I think the important thing is- I kind of mentioned from my own experience- and this is what I'm drawing my answer from, my own experience. And kind of speaking with other folks who have done similar. You know, these sort of opportunities tend to be really exciting, particularly right out of the gate. But they take a lot of work. And to succeed, they take a lot of time. So, so, you know, folks who are seeing this as an, you know, potential exit from, you know, from medicine, make sure that it's the right thing that you're gonna jump into because they can also be stressful when things are challenging.
So the way that, kind of, I evaluated whether Doc2Doc was the right thing to jump at, was… Was it with the right people? I think, you know, having at least one partner that you're working with and someone that you know you can work with well helps buffer some of those challenging times. And you can kind of pick one another up when, either for personal or professional reasons, life gets stressful. The second is, it has to be something that, at least in my experience, has to be something that you really believe in. Because, you know, just like anything new can be exciting out of the gate. But over time as, you know, as you wanna keep pushing forward and some of that excitement wears off. To have that be a rewarding endeavor, something that you have some gratification from doing, is a way that they really kind of keep going and keep excited about those opportunities. And then, the last is the timing, right? There's, as we know as doctors, there's kind of just, you know, defined points at which life changes over our typical career. And then similarly, you kind of overlay that with personal life and personal goals. And to ensure that having the time and the energy to dedicate to a new endeavor kind of fits within that overlay is really important.
So there's lots of opportunities out there. And I think particularly for us as doctors, you know, there's plenty of ways we can kind of satisfy that entrepreneurial itch. But it's gonna be different for each person. So just because you see a colleague do something that's successful doesn't necessarily mean that's the right path for you. I think it's something, again, it needs to be individualized and with the right people at the right time and something that's gonna really motivate you to keep going.
AD: Well, I get to ask three quickfire questions to wrap up. Number one, this is a surprise one, so, I can give you some time to think if you want, but do you have a favorite book for people just starting out with their finances? Going from zero, you know, no business courses at all? Do you have I- because I needed a book in residency to get started. Is there a favorite book that you have?
KA: Yeah. So I think for personal finance, if you're speaking about personal finance, you know, I did most of my research and knowledge through peers and through physician communities that were dedicated to kind of personal financial success.
So some of those. The White Coat Investor is probably the most well recognized. He's an Emergency Physician from California, Jim Dahle, and has spent a long time developing content that answers a lot of personal financial questions and goes into a lot of detail but also spoken from the perspective of a doctor. The others that I've really appreciated. And so your question to a book, and he's written two books, so that, that is particularly for like fourth year medical students and residents. It's a really good primer for how to look at and prioritize the different financial buckets that typically are available to doctors and understand those. And there's similar communities like that, that have been beneficial.
AD: Love it. Okay, so how, if somebody either wanted to get a loan or wanted to ask you questions, how does somebody contact you?
KA: Yep. So the application is directly through our website. And it's about three computer screens. There's no impact to your credit to apply. You get your terms immediately. And then that triggers an outreach from one of our six doctors, all of whom are phenomenal kind of people and advisors, and so we certainly can reach out that way. And then we're happy to speak with anybody about anything. And certainly can share our contact information. Or anyone from your community, please feel free to pass along our contact information.
AD: Okay. And I think we'll have links in the show notes, probably. Any closing thoughts before we close out?
KA: Well, again, I wanna thank you for letting me be here. You know, I think this community in particular is one that, that you know, is focused on some of the challenges of the careers in medicine and the toll that it takes. And I certainly felt that, like I said, even more so than the clinical burden. For me, it was a financial burden. And to the extent that we can help kind of smooth that path for the folks who walk behind us, or empower members of this community who want to supplement their, you know, their clinical work with something that uses that other side of the brain we’d be excited to. If it, you know, if it's just a conversation or if it's in the form of supplying some of that seed money to get something off the ground.
So, and it's really been a pleasure speaking with you, and thanks for everything you're doing with the creation of this content because having communities like this really is supportive, and you know, kind of keeps us all going. So I appreciate it.
KM: Well, thank you Ken, so much for your time and carving out some time with us in your very busy schedule with being Anesthesia and running a business. No big deal. You got this, but thank you for the inspiring content you provided. And the guidance and we are excited as The Whole Physician to partner with Doc2Doc Lending.
They have a great website, so please go check it out. They have lots of great information. If you need some guidance, like Kenton said, or just a place to start somewhere, you can talk to colleagues who have been there, done that, who know where we come from as physicians and can be very excited about where you wanna go.
So go to their website, it is www.Doc2DocLending.com/thewholephysician to get more information. Also, if you wanna claim CME for the listening to this episode, please scroll to the bottom of the show notes and click the link.
So, until next time. You are whole. You are a gift to medicine and the work you do matters.
