Amanda: Hey guys. Welcome back to the podcast. Just a reminder to scroll down real quick and leave us a five-star review. This is Amanda.
Laura: I'm Laura.
Kendra: And I'm Kendra.
Amanda: And today I'm excited. We have a special guest. Dr. Kristin Yates is joining us today to talk about inappropriate things doctors brag about and why we keep doing it. This is the first of two interviews, basically taken straight off of her Instagram account, which everyone needs to go follow right away. I find myself yelling, that's exactly right at my phone, over and over with her content, and I knew that we needed to introduce her to you all.
Dr. Yates is an OB/GYN in Georgia. She's an author, speaker, and self-described Rebel, which I love. She has her own podcast called Rebel Physician, whose aim is to help create a path for physicians to break free of the toxic medical system and create an enjoyable and sustainable career in medicine. Thank you, Kristin, for joining us.
Dr. Yates: Thank you for having me. This is gonna be really fun.
Laura: Kristin, we're so excited to have you with us. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Yates: Well, as in the intro, I'm an OB/GYN physician. And I am right now in Georgia really just doing OB. I just had a massive overhaul of my own personal career path, and that's where I really felt like I was owning the rebel title. And I have four kids. I just had my fourth baby five weeks ago now, and I have a husband and we have three dogs. My life's a little bit chaotic, but otherwise we're having a lot of fun enjoying the warm weather in Georgia.
Laura: Oh, that's awesome. Congratulations on your new baby.
Dr. Yates: Thank you.
Laura: What's the baby's name?
Dr. Yates: Connor.
Laura: Oh, awesome. Well, that's wonderful. Tell us your story about how you found coaching. We all kind of have our own story. What's yours?
Dr. Yates: My story started actually soon after I graduated from residency. That was back in 2016, and I all of a sudden, like I had found at that point, my dream job. I was very happy. I had supportive colleagues. So on paper I was supposed to be really happy and loving my job, and I found out that that wasn't the case at all.
I wasn't, I was really feeling a ton of stress, and I wasn't happy. And at that point I had just had my second child, and I was trying to figure out what I'm gonna do with all this anxiety and stress I had about work. And then I also wanted to get the baby weight off in a new way that wasn't just counting calories and stuff.
So I actually found coaching through weight loss resources. And it was really successful that way- as it is because it's all the brain stuff, all the thought stuff. And so I said, okay, well if this coaching stuff can work for weight loss. And at that point I was just listening to podcasts and kind of doing my own self coaching. Then I wonder if it can help me with my self-doubt, which at that point I had finally named it.
I was dealing with these thoughts of self-doubt, imposter syndrome that now I know is just a human thing that people have. So then I used coaching for that, and once I realized how much it could change my life and make me enjoy medicine again and help with all of the doubt that I had- which was really the initial reason why I was burnt out in the first, my first year out of residency- then I decided I needed to help other people, like other young physicians with this. And then it just kind of snowballed from there.
Okay. That's awesome. And I'm so glad that you're feeling better now and able to carry on clinically and obviously with your family. That's wonderful. So you have such amazing social media posts. We're gonna quick fire, say some things that we've seen that you've mentioned that doctors inappropriately brag about, and then we'd like for you to just tell us more. So first thing, Exhaustion.
Yeah, so this is something that I noticed right away as a resident, and I think that this probably still goes on today. But I remember I was like an intern and someone asked me how my shift was and I said, oh, I, it was not bad. I got to like even like rest for an hour or so. And I was immediately like met with this like anger, resentment. Like whatever they said to me like, oh, that must be nice, or some sort of backhanded ridiculousness.
That made me feel a lot of shame. So much shame actually, that I was like learned in my brain that this is not some, that's not okay to admit that you ever have downtime, ever. And in fact, what you should be bragging about, which my other residents and attendings showed me through years and years of my training, was that what you actually need to be saying is how exhausted you are all the time. Because that means then, that you worked hard. And your level of exhaustion means that you are valuable and not lazy, which is the worst thing you can be, is lazy. Which is basically the story that I interpreted.
And then through my coaching and working with other physicians, I've realized that that was not like a personal thing. That's a story that many physicians have. Where either consciously they know that exhaustion is equated to I'm a valuable physician, or it's an unconscious thing where there's a fear of too much rest because then it makes them feel uncomfortable that maybe they're not being productive enough.
Laura: Yeah. Okay, so side note here, also, this is prime evidence that the medical training system is a system of narcissistic abuse, which is
Dr. Yates: Absolutely.
Amanda: Narcissism is Laura's favorite topic, and we love it whenever it gets introduced.
Laura: But this is. There you go. Prime example.
Dr. Yates: Mm-hmm. I agree.
Kendra: It's almost like that badge of honor. Is it really though? Does that add any honor when you're carrying around this badge that you can't even really carry the weight of, cuz it's affecting every single area of your life? So-
Dr. Yates: What's interesting is that when you, when you think logically about it, then of course it doesn't make any sense. But it doesn't prevent us from still believing that it's true. It's very, it's, it's tricky. And then everyone around us, thinks the same thing. So it it's a trap really.
Kendra: And I don't know, if your husband is a physician, Kristin, but all three of our husbands are physicians. And I found one of my thoughts was I had to keep up with him somehow. And so, he's an orthopedic surgeon that did a spine fellowship. And he works four days a week, but they're like 14 hour days. And so even if I only had two or three shifts that week, I felt like, oh, if I'm not working, then my thought was I can't keep up with him. So my thought was, if I don't have four 14 hour days, then he's gonna look at me. I'm not gonna be worthy as a physician. You know, all of the thoughts that definitely were construed and constructed in a very unhealthy pattern.
Dr. Yates: Yeah, it really is true that we, we look around us, and I think we just will pick whoever seems to be working the hardest. And we're like, that's definitely what physicians should be doing. And so, It's just interesting as why is that? Like why don't we look at the people who are working part-time and saying that's the way that I need to go. And maybe someday in my dream world, that's how it's going to be.
Kendra: Okay. Next. Being busy.
Dr. Yates: Yeah. Obviously they all kind of correlate together, but this is about at work, but also at home. Whenever you get time at home. But if you feel like you have to be constantly seeing the most patients. Oh, I need to be seeing add-ons. I can't have time for lunch if I'm taking too long of a break, then x, y, z story in our head about how we're not good enough.
Essentially, this is- I'm gonna reveal the secret here. We think our productivity. Our, our how much, what we're doing outside, how much outside of us our action, is how our value is reflected to our employers, which is conditioned. And we are trained to be, to think like that. So there's no fault of our own. But essentially it makes us, this is gut wrenching, fear of judgment if we are sitting idly too long in our office. Or you know, if we're eating too slow or something, and maybe these things are actually being said to us, which would be really unfortunate, but definitely happens. Or it could be that no one cares because they're doing their own thing, but we still feel like everyone's looking at me. And my MAs probably think that I'm not working hard enough. Or the nurses probably need me and I, all these stories in our head.
So we constantly see the most patients. Or in the ER, maybe you're like making sure that you have the, your name by the most number of patients compared to other people. Or things like that. And then at home, you go home and you're like, I can't just, I'm exhausted. But I can't just rest. I have to clean and my kids need this and my blah, blah, blah.
And so we end up filling our weekends with either work overflow or activities or reading journals. Because the thought of being still is scary. Because again, if we admit, if we admitted, oh, what did you do this weekend? Oh, nothing. I didn't really do anything work. I just kind of hung out and played. And people would be like, well, what do you mean?
Like if you had time to play, then does that mean you should have been doing something productive? And that's the mindset that we're told to have as physicians.
Kendra: Yep. That is, that's truth right there. Okay. What about time without vacation?
Dr. Yates: Yeah, I think I've, I've met so few physicians who take all of their allotted vacation. Especially if they are, have a contract that they are allotted more than three or four weeks, which some are. Then they just feel like, I can't take on my vacation because what would my partners think? Or they need me, or I can't leave my patients for too long or whatever. It's, it's basically, we are worried that our compassion trumps our self-care and our actual physical and mental and emotional health.
Again, because vacation means that we can't prove our worth. And if we cannot prove our worth, then people might question our worth- is the story we tell ourselves. Either we know it or we don't. And so we tend to not take breaks, or if we do take time off, we take our computer with us. We log in and check on our patients.
We're checking tasks. We're looking at the census to see, Ooh, do I think it's a bad day? Or are they gonna be cursing my name at work today? Cause I'm off. So instead we say, well, I haven't taken a vacation in six months. I haven't taken a vacation in 12 months. As a way to prove our dedication and our work ethic to our partners and our employees.
Kendra: Once again, another badge of honor or whatever, that absolutely does not create anything actually positive in our life. So okay. Lastly, high patient volume.
Dr. Yates: Yeah. I think this is, you know, I'm of course not an ER physician, so I, I think maybe you pick how many patients you see. Maybe you have to, maybe you're, they're assigned to you. But in an outpatient volume, in outpatient world, this- I think this family practice doctors, internal medicine doctors feel this more. Like, I have 15 minutes to see a patient. And, and probably in the ER you have about what, five, maybe even less than that.
But it's like, if I don't. The volume matters more than the quality of time we spend with our patients. And of course, this is reinforced by the medical system, by RVUs and by forcing certain schedule templates that you could only have 15 or 20 minutes with a new patient or any patient at all.
And so therefore, we then believe that what actually matters is how many patients we see. And if we have a day where it's lighter or we are doing a half day, or we want longer with our patients, then we feel like we're not doing our part. Oh, I didn't do my part today because I talked to a patient for too long, and it's like, hmm, does that really make sense?
Because did you go into medicine to be to see a million patients a week or did you go into medicine to like, help humans heal themselves? And that requires time. And I think that along the way, because of the system that we work in, we forget. And everyone around us is doing it. So we get stuck.
Kendra: Yep. That is so true. And the question though is why do we keep doing this? Why are we, what we feel like, almost create our own prison of suffering because we continue to do these things?
Dr. Yates: I think the answer is twofold, and I think there is, and there's external pressures and there's internal pressures about why we do this. So externally, like I've mentioned, No one around us is doing anything different. And if they are, we're seeing them being harshly judged for it. Like, oh, so and so actually took all of her six weeks of vacation. What the hell? You know, and it's, so we're either hearing this . Or we're scared people will judge us. So there's external pressures to maintain this, unfortunately. So that's part of it.
Or we've maybe tried to cut back, and we're told by our, employer that we can't. Or we have to take all these ridiculous pay cuts. Or we don't get our CME and all these things that we need, like health insurance if if we don't work enough, quote unquote enough. It's really hard to make a change that you want if you think what you're looking at around you is normal. And then you think that what you want- working less or seeing fewer patients- you're the abnormal one.
So that brings us to the internal factor about why we keep doing it. It's because I believe a lot of physicians don't even realize how much they base their value and their worth on their job and their productivity. And without that awareness, you're too exhausted, your head's down, and you're drowning in work.
No one has the time to come up and breathe and say, what am I doing? Because, when do we have time to do that? Because we're always so busy, so we get stuck in this. We're just like surviving, you know? Like I just have to get through the day and go on to the next day. And then we don't realize. And I say this time and time again, and it was me too. Where there this is, this is evidence that I believe that my worth as a human and as a physician is dictated by exhaustion, high patient volume, being busy, all these things. That is a difficult thing to change cuz that's, that's years of conditioning. And it's scary. It's scary to decide I don't care what anyone else thinks about me. I'm not gonna see this many patients, and maybe I could lose my job.
Maybe my colleagues could judge me. Maybe people will think I'm lazy, but I value myself enough that none of that stuff is important. That's where I, that's where I want every physician to get to, but it's a journey because of the years of conditioning that we've experienced.
Amanda: I love that so much and it, as you say, all of this, it just brought up the image in my head that somehow we have ascribed to this notion that the goal of our life is to be the fastest hamster in the wheel.
And it's like that is not the meaning of life. That like what, how did that happen? I mean, I, we know the narcissistic system of abuse. Yeah. But isn't that crazy that such talented, intelligent people, have been reduced to this. It's, it makes me furious, which is kind of why we're in this arena right now. So what, let's talk about something else though. These are things that we have traditionally bragged about, but what should we be proud of?
Dr. Yates: What I think, and of course this, you guys probably have even better list to add to this or things to add to it as well. But I think that people need, or doctors should brag about how much time, the quality of time they spent with their patients. Or maybe even seeing fewer patients like, guess what? I only saw 10 patients today. I only saw 10 patients, and I got to spend so much time with them. I think that's something worth bragging about. That's about connection, and it's fulfilling as well. I think that people, doctors need to brag about resting every single day, using all the vacation time. And if they have a shift that they were able to rest on, then you should brag about that.
Guess what? I got to sit down and have a lunch for an entire hour today. Because when you brag about these things. And I'll, I'll go through the rest of the list that I have, but this is true for all of them. When you brag about things that are focused on healing yourself, then that spreads. And yet at first, people might judge you about it. But the more that you share that with other people unapologetically, like, I really don't care what you think, but I got to sleep eight hours last night. And it was awesome. You know? Then eventually what I think is, the more they hear it, people will start to realize, oh yeah, huh, that sounds really nice actually to take all my vacation time this year, you know?
Other things doctors should brag about is cutting back on hours if they want to or if you need to. But I don't think you need to do anything you don't wanna do. If you wanna work less, but you don't really quote unquote need to then do it. And who cares? Who cares if you wanna work less for some time? I think that as physicians, we think that our, our next decision is our forever decision. So it's like, oh, if I cut back on my time, my hours for now, then that means for rest of my career. That's not true. Like we have seasons in our life that require different things from us. So your next decision is just your next decision, for now. It's not the forever thing. And I think that that's a good reminder for all physicians to have.
Getting a full night's sleep, which I talked about before. And this includes like, stop scrolling social media until the wee hours of the morning. And, you know, not drinking a bottle of wine to fall asleep. This is like, let's prioritize sleep and not just kind of passing out at the end of the day from exhaustion. I think that's what we need to think about.
And then finally, actually spending a day of doing nothing. Like, oh, you know what I did Sunday? Nothing. I didn't do anything. I, I had someone come and take care of my kids and I did nothing. You know, and depending on where you are in your life, and what I'll, challenge your listeners to is if that feels uncomfortable. When I say that, a day of doing nothing, and if you're, if you're like, ugh. That, it makes me cringe, then explore why. Why? What are you telling yourself about a day of nothing. One 24 hour period. That makes you so uncomfortable about the idea of it? This is a really good exercise because then you can start uncovering why there's resistance there. And my guess is that it has something to do with your self self-worth.
Amanda: So good. So what sort of programs do you do? How would somebody be able to work with you. And, and if they're interested in it, how would they contact you?
Dr. Yates: Right now I just opened up my free community called Rebel Physician Community. And in there you have access to all of my courses I've done, which include a confidence course, course about imposter syndrome, a course about how to cope with medical and surgical complications, other people's opinions. There's a bunch of good stuff in there. So if you join that free community, you get access to the all of that stuff. And then the Community of Rebels, I'm trying to collect all these physicians who wanna be rebels or who are on the path of being rebellious. Which really just means doing what, what you want, which I think in medicine is rebellious. So that's where you can get more information, and then any programs that I have coming up. Like I occasionally offer some group coaching and that kind of thing, then you'll get it all through there.
Amanda: Love it. Well, before we close out, are there any closing thoughts that you have?
Dr. Yates: I think I spewed out everything to you already.
Amanda: I love it. It was perfect. It was perfect.
Kendra: Thank you Kristin, so much for joining us today. What an amazing shift in perspective, and let this just be a little seed. How about after you listen to this podcast, you not just try to go through all of this and tackle it all at the same time. But how about after this podcast you just sit and listen and and, and sit and listen to yourself. Everything that you said, some of this might be cringy, but I guarantee if you just sit and meditate on it for a minute, I think you could find a sense of comfort in it. So, thank you Kristin, so much, for your perspective today.
And if you're interested in working with us, go to our website www.thewholephysician.com to find out more information. And follow us on the socials for more great content.
So until next time, you are whole. You are a gift to medicine and the work you do matters.
