Amanda: Hi guys, welcome back to the podcast. I am Amanda.
Laura: I'm Laura.
Kendra: And I'm Kendra.
Amanda: And today is one of the greatest days. It's one of our favorite days. We have special guest star dubbed by ourselves, Doctor of Narcissism, Tony Overbay. Before we get, okay. Okay. We, I don't know if we're allowed to give these titles, but we are.
Tony: Okay. I'll take it.
Amanda: You are the doctor, PhD in narcissism. And so we're having such a big issue in medicine. But before we get started, I did want everyone to scroll down and give us. Leave us a review and comment. We love to hear it and it also helps. Other doctors find us who are hurting. So this is Laura's special niche.
So Laura, take it away.
Laura: All right. We are so pleased again to have Tony here with us. Tony has his PhD in gaslighting. He would tell us, he would tell us he doesn't have his PhD, but He might as well, he is so incredibly helpful to, I think all of humanity. So you need to go check him out on all of his stuff.
He is the host of The Virtual Couch, so much good stuff there, Waking up to Narcissism. He has a premium podcast for Waking up to Narcissism as well, that he uses to help raise money for people trying to get out of difficult relationships. He has two podcasts with two of his children, The Mind, the Mirror and Me and Murder on the Couch.
And he has many other accomplishments. We are just so pleased to have you, Tony. Thank you so much for being here.
Tony: Thank you. I'm giddy that I, feel because you're doctors, then I will take this honorary doctorate. Maybe you can impose if you have a budget of me getting some sort of award right now with that.
Thank you. I'm honored. If I can get a certificate, that would be great.
Laura: I’m on it. If yeah, if anyone has knowledge of narcissism is doctors. So we are, we will write this thing out for you. So today we're going to talk about connected conversations, guys. There is so much that most of us physicians, unless we've been going to therapy ourselves.
We just don't know about what it means to have good communication and honestly, I think it leads to a lot of frustration, not only in our personal relationships, but relationships with our coworkers and patients. So knowing all this stuff, it's gonna be super helpful. So I think first it would be great, Tony, if you could just kind of.
Give us a primer on what it means to have nonviolent communication.
Tony: Okay. And I'm so curious on your thoughts of, I really feel, and I'm not trying to give you guys a pass because now, I mean, I am a doctor and so I don't know, maybe we, can see if this is applicable to all of us doctors. But I do call this this is my pre pillar.
So I know we're going to talk about my four pillars of a connected conversation, but I read a book called nonviolent communication by Marshall Rosenberg. And it, kind of blew my mind. One of the concepts in particular about what nonviolent communication is. And now I've, very intentionally made it a pre pillar before I get to my four pillars of a connected conversation.
And in a nutshell, cause I think of you, the title. I know I'm here comes tangent number one, but I had heard about this book a long time ago. And I, when I would hear about the concept of nonviolent communication I, made a judgment. I made an observation and then I made a judgment that sounds silly.
Communication isn't violent. So then I didn't go check out the book. And then I would hear about it over and over. And then somebody that I like said, have you heard of the book? And then it's so funny. Then I thought, Oh I'll check it out. And so even that's really fascinating. Cause I would imagine as How important that bedside banner is, or the report, does that make people more willing to even listen to something?
Because I, you know, I think that concept is maybe one that applies in, life, but this nonviolent communication book, and I'm going to just read a such a quick summary of this, but there's three lessons that come out of this book, nonviolent communication and, then I think it's important too, that I think that, you know, if you think about the concepts around things like free speech, it would seem like it's the opposite of violence words can offend us, but they don't really do harm if we think about violence, and so from that point of view, it sounds like an oxymoron.
But then Marshall Rosenberg says that most, people's typical default manner of speaking to others is violent. If you consider violence to include attempts at cutting others down or coercing them into doing what we want. And I think that's really one of the biggest points of this concept of nonviolent communication.
So, so the three lessons that come out of this book, nonviolent communication, the first one is the one we'll spend a little more time on, but separating observation from judgment. It reduces a lot of conflict and then connecting actions and requests to people's specific needs is something that, you know we, don't typically do we, kind of get we mix our messages when we're talking about our, feelings, our thoughts, our wants, and then you can do the same thing to, in ways that you talk to yourself, which I think goes back to I, I could take a few minutes and praise you guys for a podcasts about the future self.
Thank you. And then what was the other one again? Well, I just had looked it up. It's the last one you guys did.
Laura: It’s forgiving ourselves.
Tony: Forgiving yourselves. Yeah. Because I think that is so important to get out of those childhood wounds of, our default to shame and thinking we have to throw ourselves under the proverbial bus in order to feel better.
And if that worked, everybody would be perfect. So that, you know, that, that's kind of a false premise anyway. So back to this nonviolent communication. So the separating observation and judgment, it's this concept where. And this is where I want to know as doctors, are we guilty of this? And, but does it help us at times?
Because you guys only have a little bit of time to make a diagnosis. So, but in what we're doing in our real lives is if we see somebody doing something, we naturally observe it and we make a judgment and so I. I just give really silly examples of if I see my son not doing his math homework and my observation is he's not doing his math homework and my judgment is, well, he must be lazy, you know, and so that makes me make sense of his situation.
So now if I say, Hey bud, what's going on? And if he doesn't say, Oh, I'm very lazy and that's not why I'm doing my math homework. Then I get to say, he's not even being honest with himself. And so then if I'm wanting to have a conversation, even if I'm pretending to be curious, I want him to manage my anxiety or validate me.
For my observation of him. So you can start to see that there's so many steps that are already so far away from having a connected conversation or, having an empathetic exchange.
So it has to be what I think it is. So I'm making this observation and I'm making this judgment. And so then so we're doing that with our spouses all the time. If we come home and our spouse is, kind of flat or shut down, we observe that and then we make the judgment that they must be mad at me.
They must not care about me, or they must be angry about something, or they must not want to hang out with me. And so now when we're saying, Hey, what's going on? And if they say I've had a rough day, then are we even hearing them? Because we've already made that observation and judgment. So before I even go further as doctors, there's that part of me that feels like, is that.
Because you guys have, how long do you have to make an observation and almost have a judgment. And then when you ask the person, well, how they're feeling, I mean I, wonder, are these variables of, are they even, do they even know how to express what they're feeling or are they hiding things because they're embarrassed?
Or so, so this concept that I love, does it fit in your world?
Laura: Yeah, it 100 percent does. And it's so interesting because We and it's like you're saying we have to separate observation from judgment and judgment We can judge a medical situation without giving a moral judgment on Okay, And we just, actually, I just had to renew my DEA certificate.
So every three years we have to renew the DEA certificate. And this year they required eight hours of continuing education to renew about prescribing controlled substances. And one of the primary things I noticed in the newer content was That doctors need to learn how to treat people, even people suffering with addiction more respectfully and that it was very, interesting.
So there is an awareness coming, but certainly when we went through training, there was no effort to help us see people struggling with substance use disorders as human.
And, but now there is coming, there's an awareness coming for that. So this is, but all of this totally applies because we can judge a medical condition, we can assess and we do have to assess quickly, especially emergency physicians. We have to figure out what's going on quickly. But we can do it without a moral judgment on the patient.
Tony: Yeah, I like that.
Amanda: I haven't read the book but a concept that I was not aware of until, I don't know, the past, I've been at this for a while now, but the past several years. Was the concept of a nocebo effect. We all know the placebo effect is, you know, a positive You know, they believe they're gonna get better.
So they get better Yeah, the thing to know about doctors is that as a person of authority We can also have a nocebo effect is when you tell somebody they only have a 5 percent chance of living the next five years That has a negative outcome. They start to believe that they are going to die within the next.
And so I look back at my pre, before I was aware of this concept and like, I thought I was being honest, but there's a way to say there are 5 percent that live, you know, more than five years. And why not you, know, so I'm still being factual, but rather than focusing on the negative and causing harm, literally causing harm to somebody.
I can rephrase it in a different way, but I just wasn't even aware.
Tony: Okay. What, and what's so amazing or about that is there's a book called The Expectation Effect, and I did a, podcast about that with my, an intern. I have Nate, are you familiar with that book? I mean the concept that they have a couple of medical examples, but that are—oh, it's mind blowing.
And they have a, they have one in particular of a, woman who is blind and, but then they, you know, they do the brain scans. They look and they can't find why-that’s the thing. And so, she had been told forever that that her eyesight was bad and that she was sensitive to light. And so then she would continually keep her rooms dark around her.
And then, and at some point then she just couldn't see, but then you could do the stimulus in front of her and areas of her brain would say she can. And so then it took time of just almost like this acceptance that, okay, you know, that's, you are. Blind. And then it was almost like her own brain fought against that because it wanted to live.
It wanted to see. And so, but she had been told that things were going south for so long that then when she was just allowed to be, then she, over time, you know, magically heal. That one blew my mind that the power of expectation. There's even crazier ones too.
Amanda: Like, and there's a whole bunch of them in a book.
I think it's mind over medicine by Lisa Rankin. Which just, like, went and put me in this complete rabbit hole. Because, like, people who believed that their chemo was working, and all these visible tumors on their body disappeared, then they read an article that actually that medicine was complete garbage.
All the tumors came back, they died. Like, just what? Or people overhearing a doctor talking to somebody else that they aren't expecting to live through the night. Yeah, no, it's wild. And we see this, we see like I don't have a medical explanation for why this is happening, and yet the person is very ill.
There is a there is such a mind body connection that is what we're not really accessing with western medicine. And other traditions do a whole lot better job of it. And, we have separate, since we can't prove it with science, you know, but anyway I, love where you're going with this.
Tony: Well, and on that note, and I think this will lead into the, even the, where I'm headed with the four pillars or well, and actually real quick too. If you want to be aware of how much you observe and judge I, noticed after I first had this concept I was at I was out to eat with my daughter and son in law and we were, you know, I loved the concept of people watching, but then when you really look at what people watching is, Oh, I'm actively observing and judging.
And so I was with my son in law and we saw just, I'm going to, I'm going to be very just judgy. I mean, I will own it, but we see this very, you know, petite very well put together woman. And a bit, a rather larger, slovenly looking man and they're together and we're waiting outside of a restaurant.
So then I just said, what do you think that their story is? And I'm, and then I'm intentionally doing it. And then, you know, we just start saying, oh, he must have money, you know, that would be the thing. And so right there, we've made the observation and we made the judgment. And so, but it could be, so many things, it could be a million different things.
And so it's just interesting because we do it to try to make sense of things. We do it to, like in the, example, maybe with my son, I do it to alleviate my anxiety because if I say that he isn't doing his math because he's lazy, it can't be because I never sat down and did math homework with him because I was never good at math or it can't be because I didn't want to spend money on a tutor, you know, or it can't be because I don't want to be uncomfortable and I was busy and you know, it can't be those things has to be because he's lazy.
So it's such a, it can be this thing to just get rid of our own discomfort you know, our brain always wants certainty. So we want to say that must be it when in reality, it's probably a lot of different things that lead to that. And and so then that's, I made that my pre pillar and Laura, I don't know if you have more thoughts or if we want to stay on this before I jump into four pillars or any other, kind of thoughts around that nonviolent communication.
Laura: I think we'll probably do a whole podcast on it as some point because there's just so much there that, but, and I would have been like you too, initially, just totally skeptic. Communication's not violent. Sticks and stones break your bones. But we, if we think, we can really recognize where now, well certainly in the youth community.
Like kids are committing suicide because of words that people are saying. So that it absolutely can be violent.
Tony: So yeah. And then again, that concept of defending, you're asking somebody to defend your view of them that they don't even know. What it really is. And so it's, maddening. And so it just eventually, and then talk about that mind body connection and our body keeping the score that then over time, let's say it's the parent child relationship and the parent or the child feels like all they're doing is defending something that doesn't even make sense to them.
Then their own body is going to start to when parent walks in the door that visceral or gut reaction, you know Those emotions are traveling faster than logic. I'm gonna go flat. And so even if my parents says hey, how's your day, bud? You know it's like fine because I'm not even gonna engage because I know where this is gonna lead or my brain's trying to tell me that because it's Oh, you guys did one with the Atomic Habits too.
And I love that concept of, even the brain wants to habitualize everything because it, you know, it still feels like it's operating with this finite amount of electrical activity. So, I mean, part of it, the whole brain's job is to habitualize and be lazy so that it can live forever, which is, not living.
So then if I see this person coming in and I've got them in this relational frame of it's not going to go well, then my, emotions are going to say, Hey, I don't even need you to think about this. Let me just shut you down. They can get on by and then you can go back to doing whatever you're going to do.
So then if that person isn't doing their own work, the parent, so they're not aware that they're observing and judging and, the kid isn't, you know, they're not asking their therapist Hey, how do I have a better interaction with my parent trying to get out of the house? So that, that's a recipe for disaster there.
Laura: Yeah. It is. It's, so interesting how we, I learned a concept recently that people in, especially in a marriage relationship are kind of like the caretakers of each other's nervous systems and we are with our kids as well. It's so interesting how we can be accessed in this deep emotional survival way, just by words, just words can put us into fight or flight.
It's crazy.
Tony: Well, I did. So I did and I want to, get to my four pillars. I promised with me and I could talk about this, that this set up for forever. And I did a episode a couple of weeks ago on this concept of this relational frame. And we do, we, so even a word. Then we learn as a kid has a, meaning and a feeling that are associated with it.
And then we put those all in this frame, this relational frame. So when somebody says a word, then we associate this feeling and meaning to it. And now when we have a conversation with even our spouse or maybe a patient, then they have a completely different relational frame with that word. And so, I mean, and I was trying to make this point of.
No wonder it's hard to communicate and why you have to be so intentional and step out of your ego because we could have completely different meanings of just words. And then and so now we're not even communicating and then, you know, we're back, backpedaling a bit to say, well, what do you mean by that?
You know, and then we hear a tone and if we grew up in a house where, oh, that something's about to be bad, you know, now our visceral reaction cuts in and then it's like, oh, nothing. I didn't mean anything. Never mind. And we just missed an opportunity to connect and, it just. And I never want it to sound like, so I, you know, I don't think we need to be communicating at all.
We should just give it up on it, but it's, you know, we need the right tools. And then, and it really can be pretty a pretty cool experience. Yesterday I released one on differentiation because I tried to make that more simplified and how it really at the key, at the core of differentiation is being able to recognize and separate your thoughts and feelings from someone else's.
Cause when we're talking, it's this whole enmeshment of. You know, do I need to defend this? Do I need to tell them they're wrong? Do I need to, and that's the immature reaction in general. So again, if I can do this whole separation of, observation judgment, then if somebody any interaction we have with anyone becomes an opportunity to self confront and grow.
So if somebody is trying to tell me something, I mean I'm the only one that knows what I really means to be me. So if they're telling me, well, I think you're doing a horrible job with whatever. Then I can just say, Oh, okay, interesting. I'll, take a look at that data. And maybe I am, maybe I'm not, maybe I need to take some of their, what they're saying and, I can implement it into my life or just them saying that and can also help me understand, Oh they don't even know who I am.
And so they're not curious, so why on earth would I try to explain to them when they're not looking to connect, they're looking to tell, or to lecture, or, so everything can be an opportunity to grow, but boy, you have to do the work to get there. Oh, I love that. Yes. All the opportunities to grow. Okay. So that pre pillar observation judgment, because that becomes very necessary because my, pillar one. The connected conversation is to, assume good intentions and it's that concept that nobody wakes up in the morning and thinks, how can I hurt my spouse, my kid, my, my patients, my partner.
And so from coming from that standpoint, anything that anyone says, if they are showing up and they are angry, if they're withdrawn, if they're ignoring something, whatever it is that, that it's like, they didn't say, this is how I can get to this person. You know, I will wait until they come home and then I will string the, you don't care about me on them right when they walk in the door while the kids are crying.
Like that will be the perfect moment, you know, nobody's doing that nefariously, but in this world of narcissism and emotional immaturity that I work in so much is that though, but when somebody is literally cursing someone out, you know, and they'll say to me, okay, I got to assume good intentions, but okay, no.
So I put a part B into that pillar one, which is, or there's a reason why somebody does or says the things they do. Because if somebody grew up in a home where they weren't modeled empathy or taking ownership or accountability, then that might be, there's a reason why they're communicating that way, and it might be that's the only way they know how to communicate when they feel like they are unheard or they're unseen.
So and this is a long game, it's a framework, so that pillar one then leads to my pillar two, which is that you can't tell somebody, They're wrong, or you think what they're doing is ridiculous, or you don't believe them, and then here's the key. Even if you think, or know they're wrong, or you don't believe them, or you, do think what they're doing is bad.
And that one can be really hard. It's kind of this mindset. And, the whole goal of this, these four pillars is to have the conversation, because we get so offended and we are making the judgments and we don't assume good intentions and we want to immediately call somebody out that's wrong and now that conversation will go out into the weeds.
And so I kind of feel like as we go through these pillars, you'll see where any of us, where our conversations devolve is, you know, the breaking of one of these pillars. And so, so if you've assumed good intentions and then you haven't said to the other person, they're wrong, even if you think they are.
And you get to pillar three, which is then, okay, I'm gonna ask questions before I make comments because now tell me more, you know, so, and I think I give a very, a real general example of this, but it's really common. And it is that example of a husband comes home from work and wife says, I just feel like you don't care about me.
And he's, let's just say, and he's been doing everything he, thinks is the right thing to do to show her he cares. So if he immediately just says, like, I can't believe she's saying that, you know how could she, then he's already not open to, the conversation. So it's not going to go anywhere. And if the second pillar, if he has been doing everything he can to try to show up for her.
And she's saying you, don't do anything to show up for me. So that's pillar two, where if he just says, that's ridiculous, you don't even know what I'm doing. Okay. Then now that conversation is going to go into the weeds. So he has to then say, okay, even if I disagree, I can't, that's her experience.
That's her opinion. And I actually need to be grateful. She's willing to express that. And then my pillar three then would be tell me more questions or comments. Tell me what that looks like. Help me see my blind spots. Help me understand where you're coming from. And that can, that's where it gets hard because now all of a sudden I feel uncomfortable and I want to get rid of that discomfort.
And that's usually where people, they gaslight, they get angry, they shut down, they, you know, turn it around on the person. And then that leads to some questions before comments and then pillar four is I say, boy, you have to stay present and you have to lean in. You can't go into a victim mentality. So, so in this example, I could have a guy easily, okay, I'm going to assume the good intention.
She's not trying to hurt me. I'm not going to tell her she's wrong, even though I kind of think she is. I'm going to say, tell me more and she's going to tell me some things. Well, I feel like you just come home and you just run into the backyard and you grab a kid and you don't really ask me about my day.
And then, so pillar four, a lot of, and sometimes I do gender stereotypes. I feel like guys are really bad at four in particular where he could say, you're right. I'm a horrible, I'm a horrible dad. And I just, I'm just a walking paycheck and my opinion doesn't matter and just tell me what to do. Cause then that's his way of getting out of the discomfort.
Cause then she gets to say, no, I shouldn't have said anything. You're awesome. And then, oh, okay. He feels better. But then she's learning over time that I can't bring anything up because he's going to pull the victim card and so then when, that happens and in that scenario, and it was a real scenario but in that one, then once he understood that, oh you, think because I come in and grab a kid and go in the backyard that I don't care, but he felt like he was, he had heard her say that she's overwhelmed and when he comes home, she just needs a break.
So then he thought I'm doing the right thing. So then he was able to say, man I can appreciate, I hear you and I can understand why you would feel that way and thank you. And then now I like to say you get one full round. Now the rules are he is speaker, she is listener. Same rules apply. And then if he gets to then say, I feel like, you know, I was trying to help.
I thought that by grabbing a kid and going to the backyard, you know, because now she has to assume good intentions, can't say, well, that's ridiculous. Can ask questions and then stay present and so they both feel heard and understood and then they lived happily ever after and they had a unicorn and a pot of gold.
You, you touched on that you know, when they turn into the victim and I've never really understood why that bothers me so badly but, then I read Mel Robbins actually has it in her book. It's because the person who was hurt, the person who's trying to explain why, they're hurt. Then when they, the other person flips to the victim card, suddenly that person the hurt never gets addressed.
Yes. And then they become responsible for soothing the person in the first place. I'm like, no wonder, yes, it, and nobody put it in words that I had seen yet. Yeah. And I was like, yes, that's what it feels, so like. You're not validated at all. And then you're responsible for soothing the other person.
So there's a double whammyExactly. Because and then we go back to that, the brain likes these patterns and it habitualizes things. And so we already start to feel like, okay, here I go. If I'm even going to try to express myself, then I know I'm, what's the point? Because he's going to turn it around on that.
He's the victim and I'm going to have to. Spare is, you know, I'm rescuing, rescue is ego, ego. So maybe, you know what, maybe this is a me thing. And then, but then over time, your body keeps the score and then he comes home, grabs the kid. And then you just, you're just like, and if he says, Hey, what's the matter?
Then you get, you say, no, nothing. And then he's, he says, okay, good. And then 20 years into that, they come into my office. And she finally expresses that and he says, why didn't you ever tell me, you know, and then it's like, well, Oh, I'll take this one. Because you would be, a big baby and say that nobody cares about me.
And she would, rescue your ego and then he would feel great. And you know, then she's just nodding her head. You know, that's the way I see it over and over again. Thank you for putting that into words. Cause I. I never knew what was happening, but I knew I felt horrible.
So much of this is that it is happening, but it didn't feel good. And part of that, then I appreciate that way you put that. Okay. Right. And then there's, this is one of those frustrating things though, of people are going to hear this and they're going to see it and then they're going to want to call it out.
But then if the other person, this is one of the most frustrating things. If the other person isn't also working on themselves or is aware of the framework or wants to take ownership. Then they're the person's gonna say, Oh, I heard this podcast and you're being a victim and you want me to rescue you and they're like, Oh, jeez.
Okay. I guess you're the smartest person around now. And I'm a huge victim. And then you're all of a sudden you're like, but you're doing it like literally right now. And it will. So that's one of the hard things is, at some point, but everybody does that. They go in and they, and I always, I think we maybe talked about this on the narcissism piece the last time, right?
You know, I've got these rules. You raise your emotional baseline, self care, you get your PhD in gaslighting, you get out of unproductive conversations, you set boundaries. But that fifth one is, you'll never give the other person the aha moment or the epiphany. So I put that in the concepts of emotional maturity or narcissism, but it's kind of a rule to live by.
And that one's a hard one so that you can do all the work that you need to and that is the right thing to do. But I, just, I've got a whole concept I talked about a few, it was a few weeks ago where I call it holding this assertive frame where, you know, if that person is not being curious and unwilling to self confront and doesn't want to hear you, then you now have a responsibility to yourself of you aren't going to be the victim now.
And know that person feels unsafe in the relationship or insecure. So they are testing the relationship for safety. And then I say now your job is to put your connection ahead of the fear or ego because they will attack your ego because they feel attacked. And then there's another concept in this holding of the assertive frame where you don't have to explain your love at that point.
You just be, you are just doing. And and that, and because then it does become this opportunity for growth. So now I recognize it. And now I even recognize that if I try to address it, oh yeah, so they're still reverting to the same pattern and that's really hard, but that's where I want somebody to know that you're doing a great job and, over time, either that's going to give you the courage to be able to express that I really want to see a change in our relationship and I'm doing it from a healthy ego, from a place where I'm not trying to control, I'm not seeking validation, I'm not trying to manipulate, I'm coming from a place of, I really think that we could have a better relationship.
Yeah. And you're making that invitation. And if that person doesn't accept it, then bless their heart because you've done you, know, what, you know, and that can be really difficult. I know I just like laid out the four more podcasts.
We absolutely here on this podcast, but it's so interesting what you said about that. And we recently talked about what it means to. Move into that discomfort zone and what it is to be Not have comfort in situations and usually on the other side of discomfort is growth So what does it mean to self confront or sit with discomfort?
Oh, it's so good. It's so good, Kendra, because this is the, I think this is your, this is where growth occurs because we're designed to move away from uncomfortable things. I mean, that's our, nature. So you have to be intentional to, to kind of lean into the thing that seems counterintuitive to lean into.
And so many things in mental health are the opposite of what you would think they would be. That the, you know, the solution is, and I, and sometimes I just want to say that alone makes more sense than we would think it does, because if it was all the things that we do by default, then we would all be better and everything would be easy.
And, you know, so, so I think we're kind of here to learn to self confront and grow. And that's, but it's so frustrating because. You could be the one doing it, and then you still want validation for the fact that you are doing it. And so typically you're wanting the validation from your partner who isn't, and that's the person that you interact with the most.
So self confrontation, I love this. It comes from a place of, you have to recognize that you're seeing everything through your lens, period. And, that's why I love talking about the relational frames. I love talking about the, you know, this observation and judgment, everything's coming through your lens.
And, why wouldn't it be nothing wrong with that? And you know, that's so, so from starting from that point, you have to actively step outside of your ego to say, okay. This is, these are my thoughts, but they're my thoughts, so I have to actively say, well, what are your thoughts? And then when they, somebody expresses themselves, I always say, you want to keep your hand over on your ego though, because your immediate response is still going to come from your, ego.
And that's where you're still going to want to say, well, yeah, but. So it is so hard to then self confront because that means. What if I am not right about things, you know, what, if there are things I could do to improve. And so when you first start to do that, now we go back to, that's why I loved your guys episode because we start, then we beat ourselves up because we think, man, I should have known this.
And, this is where I want to go right back to our childhood default programming is shame because when you're a little kid. Everything revolves around you. So if you don't get your needs met, which we won't cause we're kids, then we don't say, Oh other people must be having their own experiences or struggles.
We think. You know, I don't get the pony because I must be a bad kid. So our default is shame. And so then, so all these things are things that we have to actively work to, get out of or get to move away from as an adult. Because our default is to continue to. Get rid of discomfort. So I'm going to shut down.
I'm going to gaslight. I'm going to get angry. I'm going to withdraw. And then I get to go into my corner and I get to beat myself up. Now, man why, does this person not care about me? Why does nobody want to understand me? You know, why me? And then that, that often in my world too, and maybe in your, guys has met with now I need to turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism.
So now I need to turn to, you know, porn or gambling or food or phones. So then I get to feel really bad about that and, but you know what, tomorrow it'll be a whole new thing. But I really didn't work on anything. So then, and that just repeats a cycle and people get deeper and deeper into this place of guilt and shame and all that stuff.
So, okay, so now we're all sitting here on the edge of our chair. What we want to know is how do we apply what you've told us today to our own personal relationships? We want help. We want free advice from the doctor, of gaslighting and narcissism.
What are some ways we can apply what you've taught us to our own personal relationships? Yeah. So, and it's this is you know, even though now I have my doctorate I, still do, I'm still trying to figure this stuff out. And cause I want to say, I debate with myself about what I call the one person four pillar.
So if I want to be heard. If I just say, why don't you hear me, you know, most likely my partner is not going to say, Oh my gosh, I'm not hearing you. Let me step, you know let me step into a empathetic role and ask you questions. They're going to say, well, you don't hear me or I don't know what that means or well, I do all these other things.
So, so then my one person, four pillars is if I want to have a chance at first of being heard or understood. Then I'm going to go in and I'm going to initiate a question. So even if I'm saying, Hey, what are your thoughts around like the concepts of, being heard or understood? Do you think that really is important?
Or do you feel like you're heard or understood in our relationship? Because now that person is going to start talking and now little, and I used to jokingly say little, they know they just walked into the four pillars. So now they're, talking and now I get to assume good intentions. They're not trying to hurt me.
I can't tell them, no, they're wrong. And now I can ask them questions. So tell me more about that. And then I can't go into a victim mode. And so now they, they feel heard and understood. They don't know that this is our goal because I used to think, okay, well, then now you get with that. Oh, I appreciate that.
You validate their experience. And then you share from the, I feels, I wonders, I worries. But, I feel like while that is better than not having a conversation. If that person is not aware of what is happening or they're not working on the relationship with themselves, now they feel heard and understood.
And now you just all of a sudden made it about you, you know, so now it can backfire and all of a sudden they're like, well, okay, well, I disagree. I just told you what I think. And so why, you know, and so that's the unfortunate part is that I'm still trying to wrestle with that of trying to lead someone into a connected conversation.
Versus this other concept of, if, you have done your own work and you're not, again, I go back to, if you're not saying something because you are trying to, coerce somebody into validating you, if it's the, gosh, I just feel like I'm such a bad therapist, and I look around the room, anybody think that one, , okay let me try this one man, I just wish that somebody would rub my feet or my feet would get rubbed.
It's like. You know, again, it's like, how about that one guys, you know, cause if I'm not doing it, if I'm just saying, you know, I would love if we massage, I don't know, that's a bad exam. And I'm like, I would love if we massage each other's feet. Although, I mean, if I'm really saying it because I think foot massages are amazing cause I actually really do.
And so yes, I would take ownership that I would benefit from them. And I think I give them in a very good way. And I feel like you've enjoyed them in the past. I'm saying that from a not manipulating, not, you know, trying to get validation and not in a way of control. You know, then that is fair for you to do.
So a lot of the people I work with come in and they see me because their style says, yeah, you can go see your therapist. I'm fine. And, and, that's a red flag, but then at that moment, , I'm working with the person and I am helping them show up and then they're able to express things that they, would love more date nights in a relationship.
They would love to be able to talk about things other than the schedule, or, the, what the kids are doing. They would love to be able to have conversations around finances or sex or politics or religion or, parenting. And so then if their spouse is unwilling. Because maybe they're emotionally mature, then now I slip back into what I was talking about earlier, that then I'm teaching this, holding this assertive frame, you know, that, Hey then, all these opportunities can be for my good.
And I know that I'm coming from a good place. So if this person is unwilling to meet me, then most likely they don't feel safe in the relationship. I can't tell them that, but now I have an opportunity to, put my connection ahead of the fear ego. So now I'm going to start working more on being financially responsible and then.
If they then start to say, oh, you think you're Dave Ramsey now, then now I even know, oh, what an opportunity for me to not not jump in and attack, you know, what an opportunity for me to be differentiated because I know I don't think I am, but I know if I say no, I don't that now they're like, okay, see, I gotcha.
Well, then why do you think, you know, and so it's like, oh, I get to just be, I get to be present. I'm putting this connection ahead of the fear that I might say the wrong thing. Or a connection ahead of ego, because if I keep doing what I feel is best for me, then I may be met with an attack on my ego, that you think you're so smart, you think you're whatever, and then I don't have to explain myself, I'm just going to be and do, and that's where you kind of feel like a jerk, if you're one of these pathologically kind people.
I say that every relationship starts codependent and enmeshed. And then as we go through life experiences, in a ideal world, we become differentiated. But then as we do that, then there, there is a lot of invalidation at first in the middle.
But, I think like what I think maybe Kendra was saying, that's where the growth occurs though. That's that discomfort, but if we're both not involved in it, I can still grow from my discomfort. And that's, such a trippy concept too, because it comes from this work around you know, masculine and feminine polarity and, so this holding the assertive frame that I like to call it in, in, in essence or in practice, it leads your spouse into safety to be able to have.
Better conversations, but you can't do it with that as the goal. You have to do it for you and accept the fact that they may not meet you there. Because if you don't, if you can't accept that, then you may continually make it about why are they not now doing it? Why are they not now meeting me here in the middle?
But I have to do what's best for me, you know, because that is going to put me in a better place to be the better version of me. And then if they choose not to then participate, it really is a them issue because now I'm, you know, I know I'm doing the best work I can do. And then that's a good thing that will carry over into your work or with your kids or that sort of thing.
So tell, I'm curious if that makes sense, you know, or if I,
Laura: Do you think if we boiled it down to it's like, we're in charge of ourselves and the interaction with other people presents opportunities for growth. If we make sure that we stay in our own sphere of stewardship, really, which is us.
Tony: Yes. And that right there. It's so funny. And I found myself, maybe this is like the old man in me, the old therapist in me getting all crotchety, but I'm finding myself wanting, laying out the eventual goal, you know, very early on. And not that, I mean, we can do a whole podcast on that because I feel like initially people aren't even hearing what I say.
When I talk about a healthy relationship, I used to think people are going to hear that and they're going to go, Oh my gosh, I want that. But when they just come into therapy, they want you to tell them they're right and their spouse is wrong. So when you're like differentiation and invalidation and whatever, you know, they're like, he seems pretty passionate about that.
But anyway, let me tell you what she's doing, you know, so they're not even really listening. Yes. But I feel like the, eventual goal is it is honest to goodness. You are absolutely, you're two different people and you're in, you have different experiences. So it seems silly to think that , they have to be completely in alignment with me, we have to agree on everything, you know that's, kind of immature but, we do that, like that's an acceptance there. So then as we go through life, then it really is, I really believe, yeah, we're together to populate the species and all that stuff. But I think the real reason is because we need another human being to interact with as almost like our muse.
To then say, here's the situation, here's what I think, but that's just my opinion, and I, don't want to live in an echo chamber, so what do you think? And then if they feel safe enough to say, well, here's what that means to me, and we aren't looking at, well, you're dumb, and I'm right, and you're wrong, and, you know.
And then it's like, Oh, fascinating. Where does that come from? Because the real concepts around differentiation and I always end up holding my hand up. It's like they're, offering you, well, here's my experience. It's a platter of stuff. And you get to say here's mine. And I may want to keep all of my stuff, but if I feel safe then I, can say, I had no idea about this thing that, you know, so, but I like that.
So I'm going to take a little bit of that and put that into my experience. Because I want to be better and so, so really it ends up it's all about you and, even that sounds selfish until it doesn't, but two people are the best way to get to that point when you're safe and, curious. So I think you're right.
Amanda: And what I'm also hearing from you is not only is it, because I do see this happen sometimes where people go into self improvement because if they can just improve themselves enough, then they can change another person, which is, and it doesn't work, right? So, and then it's not just about improving you.
You're trying to manipulate another person. If I learn all the things, then I can change this other person. No it, has to be. from you truly wanting to grow and become a better person yourself because you can't control anybody else. So that was so awesome. Is it the same premise for our work relationships or are there any special,
Tony: Well, I think that's a great question. And first of all, I want to say Amanda, what I liked that you said so much there is that we still want to, we want our partner to, to be better, but that means that's still a me issue. I want them to be better. Like For me, you know, and so I really still need to say, okay, what is best for them?
Because this is where I want to say the joke and I wish it was a joke, but yeah, I've been doing this for weeks now, you know, I mean, I want to say I'm the, pro I'm supposedly, oh yeah, I've been doing this for decades. It's like, I feel like I'm barely figuring this part out and and I, have this just weird feeling sometimes where I think if I would've been going to a therapist about this last part where about it is only my journey, even though I'm with a spouse and I want to tell them not to worry about something, or let me tell you how, what, how this works for me, that sounds cool, but it's still, well, that's a me issue. And that's a part, I feel like you don't, it's one of those, you don't understand until you understand it, until you've experienced it, until you realize, I just want to hear my spouse, you know we, had some family stuff go down recently and and I'm just hearing her, I'm listening and I'm noticing.
I want to say as a therapist, you know, or what's worked for me, but unless she's curious about what my experience is, then if I start expressing something, even if I think it's the right thing, she'll hear it as you're wrong and I'm right. And that is not a way to build a relationship. So it's been wild to me to, in essence, I'm getting my validation right now by saying it.
Cause I, still haven't gone back and said, well, what's worked for me? Because that isn't what she was asking. I, and I said, how are you feeling about this thing? And she's telling me, and then I'm sitting there and we'll do this thing at night where I'm on a run and she's on her bike cause she worked out earlier.
And so then I was grateful that I was out of breath because it also helped me not talk. You know, cause I think I'm noticing, you know, it's a lot easier to go tell me more than, you know, than me. Like, well, I think because I had strong opinions that I really was like, Oh, I still want to say these things cause they, they work for me.
But I, you know, I just want to hear her, because she's on her own journey too. Now I go back to what I said earlier is the part that I think I still don't quite have my own courage or confidence in. Is that when I know I'm coming from a place of not again, not seeking validation, not looking for control, but really wanting a true connection, then I can offer that from a confident place.
And if she chooses not to accept it, then that's okay. It's perfectly okay. And then I get to accept with love 100 percent that I made, I expressed myself and I feel heard. And I even go back to my initial goal, the four pillars, it isn't about even resolution, which sounds kind of funny, but it's really about hearing and understanding and that feels so counterintuitive to what we think we're supposed to do in relationships.
So, so, yeah, so I think the work thing is a little bit interesting because then I think it, you know, almost goes back to that expectation effect. So. In my world, I want, and I've done some four pillar trainings at law firms and at CPA firms and with big religious institutions. So I still think it's the, it's a backbone, it's a framework to communicate from but, honestly, it kind of go back to this like deep thought that I, to myself of that, even my four pillars are just a muse.
It's a thing that now we have to communicate about. So if somebody can do it, then they can have more connected conversations. If somebody can't. Then the other person gets to realize, okay, so, you know, maybe this isn't, this person isn't interested in, a collaborated environment. And so then... That might change the goal of the project at work, or, but I think it would be helpful to, implement this in every relationship.
Amanda: Where should people go to find more of your stuff? Find more about the things you teach about and all of your things.
Tony: So, so I am absolutely the world's worst salesman. I mean, I have lots of free podcasts that I talk about four pillars constantly.
But I do have a, like a webinar that's it's 19. I go for all this stuff and I, offer money back guarantee. It's on my website and then I have a marriage course that I'm actually revamping right now. That will come out at a lower price than what's out right now. So I would even tell people don't, go get the one now, which is again, world's worst salesman.
But there's one coming out soon and, I'm trying to, it's so funny too. Here's where I'm going to sound a little bit. It's so fun. I don't know if I talked about this last time, but I do, I'm doing more and more. I've got one of my daughters managing my tick tock, you know, and my Instagram reels.
And I've got a social media agency. That's amazing that they're putting more reels out. So I'm just trying to talk about these things more just so that people hear them. And so you can find me talking about stuff in little clips on YouTube shorts or TikTok or Instagram reels. And then the marriage course I really think is, good.
And I, cause it has all these elements and, the reason why I say, Oh, hang on is I keep adding to it because you know, this nonviolent communication or my pre pillar, I feel like I just implemented a month or two ago. And then this all concepts around discomfort and validation and you know, those are continually evolving.
But but yeah, I've got a lot of, I mean, my podcast lately, I can't lie, I've been super intentional. I almost feel like with everything that I'm trying to put in the course. Doing specific episodes about and going on a bit of a deep dive in the preparation for the course. So, I mean, I did one on again, relational frames and differentiation.
I did a two part series on how we want to get rid of discomfort and we seek certainty. And just so I would go hit my virtual couch podcast, maybe for a lot of this too. I love it so much.
Amanda: And I just want to reassure everyone that we're going to have Tony back and talk about specifically narcissism in medicine, because I cannot wait for this.
Tony: Me too. And I, and again, I'm going to, I really do. I want you guys over on mine too, because I want people to hear what the doctors are. They're nice people and they are empathetic and look at this, they have podcasts and they want to do better. And 'cause I, you know, I try to get people to advocate for themselves and I won't even, I know we're outta time now.
I wanna ask you all those questions about what, is it good for somebody to come in with their list of things or, you know, I mean, 'cause I do feel like people already prejudge even the doctors appointment. 'cause I will have people get ready and write things down and they're gonna self-advocate. But most of the people, they're so terrified to go to a doctor's office.
They're already telling me, well, they're not going to listen anyway. And I'm like, Oh, well, in my mind and sometimes out loud, it's well, how many times have you brought in your notes or your whatever. Well, none because I don't even know why I would go through the trouble and I'm saying there's a giant observation and judgment.
You are violently communicating with your doctor and they don't even know it, you know, so I would love to have you come on and talk about that too.
Kendra: Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you, Tony. So much. Thank you. Thank you. This has definitely been a lot to hold on to and definitely need to probably replay this one over and over again until it really gets in.
Yeah. It really changes your life from the inside. So, thanks for joining us today. We are excited because we'll be in Philadelphia for ACEP Scientific Assembly, October 9th through 12th. Will you be there? Look for us at the Revitalize Women position group booth and the networking event on October 10th.
We will include a link to this event's website in the show notes. We will also be at the women's and wellness section events. So go to our website, www. thewholephysician.com to find out more information. So until next time you are whole, you are a gift to medicine and the work you do matters.
