Amanda Dinsmore (00:01)
Hey guys, welcome back to the podcast. I am Amanda.
Laura Cazier (00:05)
I'm Laura.
Kendra Morrison (00:06)
And I'm Kendra.
Amanda Dinsmore (00:08)
And we have an exciting series that we're gonna start on building lasting connections with your kids. This is from the great mind of Laura. So I'm gonna let her take us into an introduction of this topic.
Laura Cazier (00:26)
Okay, I don't know how to recover from such an introduction like that, but okay. My great mind, it's, aw.
Amanda Dinsmore (00:31)
You've got good stuff. You started a school on this side. Yeah. Like own it, you know? Like you're good at this.
Kendra Morrison (00:35)
Just lean, yeah, lean into it. Yeah, lean into it, you school administrator.
Laura Cazier (00:42)
Well, I will say that working in the pediatric emergency department for, I don't know, it's been like 15 years that I've been only doing that, has really given me a passion for kids' mental health. And kids' mental health really begins with their connection with their parents. And having my own kids really created an interest in this topic for me. So hopefully it's interesting to you guys too. Even if you don't have kids yourself yet, this can help you in your relationships with everyone. We want all our relationships to be positive and feel good.
I like the term feeling like sunshine. We want to be around people who feel like sunshine, and hopefully, we want to be that kind of person for the people we love too. Sometimes it's just a little challenging when we're trying to get things done, feeling responsible for the weight of the world, and managing so many things. There are also people who might create messes or make us late or things that might make life not run quite as smoothly. So I want to talk about something called the five-to-one positivity rule.
Laura Cazier (02:28)
So obviously doctors have special challenges in many areas of our lives. Even though we might have everything figured out for how to relate to our patients and coworkers, we oftentimes struggle with those family relationships.
Kendra Morrison (02:33)
Are you sure? Okay. Mmmmm.
Laura Cazier (02:58)
We want to equip you with some tools to help make those relationships strong and feel good and help you feel confident as you interact with your kids because that's so important for not only their well-being but our own.
Kendra Morrison (03:17)
I think this is a great topic, L, because, you know, just even working in the ER this weekend, I find myself like, you know, when we take care of kiddos and their parents, as an ER doc, you're one way. You're like, this is my patient. I'm not gonna get connected. I'm not gonna feel, you know, or try to just be professional, whatever you tell yourself to try to take care of these little people the best you can. But you're aware of not feeling too much with them. Then you have to turn it off when you come home and figure out a way to just connect with your kids in that feely touchy way.
It is difficult to kind of do that sometimes. And I think physicians especially have a challenge when it comes to that. But the five-to-one positivity rule is a concept. It's not about eliminating the negativity entirely. It's actually about creating a foundation of positive interactions that buffer the impact of an occasional conflict. It comes from the Gottman Institute, which we talk about.
Laura Cazier (04:35)
Yeah.
Kendra Morrison (04:36)
We talk about it a lot. They're not just marriage people, they're relationship people. And so this comes from them. They've done a ton of research and it's been reproduced and backed by a lot of good stuff. The concept comes from the research by John and Julie Gottman. They found that couples in happy, stable relationships tend to have at least five positive interactions for every one negative interaction during conflict. The Gottmans call them masters or disasters, I think, or something like that. The masters are the ones who had 85% success in marriage compared to the ones that ended in disaster.
Laura Cazier (05:04)
Yeah.
Kendra Morrison (05:29)
So how does this apply to parents and children? Well, it's a relationship. We're constantly talking about nurturing different types of relationships. If it's an application to a marriage to make it successful, it can be applied to any relationship to make it successful. By aiming for at least five positive interactions for every negative one, we can build stronger, more resilient relationships with our kids. It can be especially helpful during challenging phases like adolescence. Anything we can use going into adolescence as tools or armament against that challenging period, I'm all in for it. This is just about nurturing a relationship. If you see it as something to be nurtured like a marriage, then this is a win-win for everyone.
Laura Cazier (06:35)
Yeah, I like thinking about it like you would take care of a plant. If a plant is healthy and you've been watering it, fertilizing it, giving it sunshine and fresh air, it's going to withstand a little bit of neglect or wind. But if it's anemic and wilting, it's not going to do well if some kind of challenge comes along. The Gottmans talked about this rule during conflict: five positive interactions for every one during conflict. I did not grow up seeing that modeled, for sure. So it doesn't come naturally. It's going to be intentional for most of us. Most of us are not naturally, especially having come through medical training. We're very task-oriented or directive. It doesn't mean I don't love you, but take out the trash. If we don't buffer directiveness with positivity, resentment can build up in our kids.
Here's some examples of positive interactions you can incorporate throughout your day, regardless of the child's age. One is verbal affirmations. "I love seeing you work so hard on that drawing," or "You're such a kind friend for sharing your toys." For adolescents, it can be related to their interactions. "I love how you took a shower today without me asking." "Thank you for folding your clothes." "Thank you for sitting next to me." You can stack them like that, where you say two kind things in one sentence or interaction.
Physical affection, hugs, high fives, snuggle time on the couch. We think that as kids enter adolescence they need this less. The reality is they need it more. It's easy to snuggle little kids.
Kendra Morrison (09:25)
Yeah.
Laura Cazier (09:29)
But our big kids really need this too. Kids who don't receive physical touch may seek it in relationships with other kids. We want them to feel safest at home with us, feel connected, and have home base be a good place for them. Appropriate physical affection is really important, even in adolescence.
Kendra Morrison (10:03)
Yeah, I like that one because, as you guys know, you're moms of boys. But sometimes, as a mom of a boy, you're like, "Just high five, slap on the butt, see you out there, good talk." My son definitely, like last night, came in from working on the ranch all day and wanted a hug. He was greasy from head to toe, but I hugged him. It's hard to know. Definitely when we're at home in the comfortable environment, it's easy to give hugs and love on them. Then, dropping off from school, it's like, "Alright, mom, see you later, bye." It's interesting to navigate the season as my son is in those teenage years. Verbal affirmations are so true. Just noticing when they do something and saying thank you. My kids know their chores, but recognizing it with a "Thanks for taking out the trash."
Laura Cazier (11:47)
I love that. Back to physical affection, think about how emotionally regulating it can be to sit next to someone you consider a safe person. How important is that for a teen? Being a teen is stressful and dramatic. They are immersed in a cesspool of emotional immaturity. They can benefit from regulating by hanging out with mom or dad. Shared activities, playing games, reading together, going for a walk, or cooking a meal together. Doing these shared activities and having fun together is so important for relationships and brain development. It helps everyone's mental health to do fun activities. Active listening, paying attention to what they're saying. When they want to talk, turn toward them, put your phone down, look at their face, look at their eyes, ask follow-up questions, notice their feelings and validate them.
It looks like, "That must be really hard." It's tempting to try to fix our kids' feelings, but they need us to say, "It makes sense that you feel that way." You can help problem-solve later, but first they need to feel validated and heard. Expressing interest in their world, ask about their day at school, their hobbies, their favorite things, ask about the future. What do they want their life to look like in the future? This is something I do to connect with my patients at work all the time. Especially kids who come in for psych complaints, I ask them, "What do you see for your life? What kind of job do you want?" Many say, "I don't know." "Well, what's your favorite subject at school?" These are some options: "Do you like history? Some people might be a history professor or might go to law school or become president. What interests you?" Having that conversation with them about their future helps them cast a vision beyond what stresses are happening right now in their lives. Not attaching any of our own worth to what they decide about their future is important. If they say they want to work at a pet store, great. Trust that later they may decide to work at a pet store, or they may want to go to vet school. They are 100% worthy no matter what they decide to do. When we don't try to control them or their feelings or thoughts, our connection is stronger with them. They will trust us more. When we try to change their feelings or tell them to look on the bright side, we teach them that it's not safe to talk to us and share their thoughts and feelings with us. Just listening with complete empathy and openness and gratitude for their willingness to connect with us is a very effective way to make those connections stronger.
Amanda Dinsmore (16:36)
It turns out neither one of my boys likes to talk about self-help books or feelings in general. So I have learned more about bass fishing than I ever thought possible. But that's on purpose to express interest in their world. That maybe didn't come naturally to me.
Laura Cazier (16:44)
Shocker.
Amanda Dinsmore (17:01)
It should have probably as a parent but listen, if I'm not going to start learning about bass fishing, then we're not going to have a lot of conversations. So let's go, okay?
Kendra Morrison (17:11)
Yeah, I know that's the same. Yeah, same with my daughter. My husband and I grew up playing sports, but the one sport we did not play, my daughter excelled in and loved. So guess what I did? I got out YouTube and started watching videos about volleyball: how to play, what the rules are, so that I didn't just sit and not know how to yell for her on the sidelines as a parent. I'm all in on the sidelines. I'm that crazy parent.
Amanda Dinsmore (17:43)
I do love to cheer for a child. Yeah.
Kendra Morrison (17:44)
But it did help to connect, knowing what was going on. When she would complain like, "Mom, I didn't serve whatever, serve, receive, blah blah blah." I could ask actual questions: "How'd you feel about your blocks today? How'd you feel about whatever?" So that's very true. I was all in on the volleyball.
Amanda Dinsmore (18:09)
Little humbling that they don't always pick the same topics that you want them to. Okay, so we started out with verbal affirmations, physical affection, shared activities, active listening, and expressing interest in the world. Next, offering words of encouragement, which at first glance I was like, well, that's kind of verbal affirmations.
Laura Cazier (18:14)
I'm gonna.
Amanda Dinsmore (18:30)
But I would say verbal affirmations is more affirming who they are and offering words of encouragement is like, "You can do it" or "I believe in you." So a little difference there. Sometimes you just need one person to say, "Yes, I do think that you can do it." How great is it when you're that person in your child's life?
Next is celebrating their achievements. This is something I need to work on. No matter how big or small, acknowledge their accomplishments. How fun is it when you do even a little thing and there's a little celebration for it? Kendra, I think you're really good at making it a fun thing, even when it's a small situation. I want to be more like that. Positive reinforcement is what we want. So how fun is it to celebrate achievements? We tend to look at what's going wrong, so this is an intentional thing to look at what's right and make it fun. Lastly on this list is smiling and making eye contact. Simple nonverbal cues can show warmth and connection. My kids and I would do this sign language, "I love you," and that was our thing. We didn't have to say anything, no one else knew, but we connected. You can have your own gang sign, whatever you want. That's something special between you and your child.
Okay, now we're going to use an example. Laura, I needed you during COVID because this is the perfect example. We're going to talk about it. There isn't a specific study on the five-to-one rule in parent-child relationships, but let's walk through a scenario. The scenario is your kid is struggling with their homework. This is me during COVID: "I explained it once and I explained it well, I don't understand why you're not getting it." Okay, Amanda, maybe you're not cut out to be an elementary teacher. Here we go.
Your kid's struggling, you might: number one, offer help and encouragement, that's positive interaction, number one. Number two, listen patiently to their frustration, that's also positive, you're just holding space for them. Number three, suggest a short break, that can be positive, burn off some steam, maybe a little physical affection. Number four, work on the problem together without losing your mind, that's positive. That's closeness, a shared activity. Number five, praise their effort, even if they don't get the answer right away. That's so important for school, sports, and everything else: to encourage the effort rather than the result. Successful business people know that there will be a lot of failures on the way, but they keep churning at it and don't get thrown off when something works. Praise the effort even when they don't get the answer right. Then this balances out the one negative interaction when invariably you do lose your mind. You have something in the bank account that evens that out.
Laura Cazier (22:06)
Yes.
Amanda Dinsmore (22:12)
Listen, and give yourself grace too. When you don't have a lot in your emotional reserve bank, intentionally put a lot in theirs with the positive interactions, knowing that you might not be quite as patient today as other days.
Laura Cazier (22:12)
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that I would add is it's easy for us to get caught up when our child is struggling with something and making it mean something about us. That just compounds any issues they have because then they're like, "My parent is not regulated and they're going to try to calm us down." Our kids are incredible, amazing human beings just on their own. If they struggle with their math, it's okay. Encouraging them and verbally affirming and rewarding that effort is huge. It's so funny. My 18-year-old has read a bajillion parenting books. It was one of the things I was so passionate about. I came out of a dysfunctional home growing up, thinking, "I'm doing it differently. I'm going to stop all of this crap and my kids are going to have a great life." And they have. My 18-year-old comes to me saying, "You shouldn't have been praising us for doing stuff. You should have been praising us for our effort." Like he's reading books now.
It's humbling, you know? Knowing that we're never going to get it all right. It's okay. I'm actually like, that's actually really beautiful. Like great, yes. We each do better than our parents did, hopefully. I certainly see where my parents did better than their parents did.
Amanda Dinsmore (24:01)
Yeah.
Kendra Morrison (24:04)
I would have been like, all right, listen.
Amanda Dinsmore (24:08)
Here comes the one negative interaction.
Kendra Morrison (24:09)
Take a walk because I need one. Yeah, for sure. Full circle.
Amanda Dinsmore (24:16)
Yeah.
Laura Cazier (24:30)
And I'm sure that they did better than their parents. So we're trying, we're all trying, and we're all going to mess up. It doesn't mean anything about us if our kid struggles. What makes us a good parent, a loving parent, is to just be there for them and support them and help them reach their potential by encouraging hard work and tolerance of failure.
Tolerance of failure, a lot of us did not come into medical training with it, and it can help. It can just help them have a more rich and full experience in life if they can tolerate a little failure.
Amanda Dinsmore (25:13)
When somebody pointed out that when I'm getting frustrated that my kid isn't doing well in school or whatever, he's already struggling. But then he's having to manage my, or, you know, I'm just piling on top of that. Am I making it any easier for him? Absolutely not. I am only making it a horribly stressful interaction on top of him already struggling in school. I don't know why I didn't see that before, but that is so clear to me now.
Laura Cazier (25:14)
Amen.
Yeah, so us just having confidence in them because one other thing that I have learned from working with so many kids every day for so many years, they are all smart. They all can do anything they put their minds to. Some are developmentally delayed, but it is very unusual for me to encounter a kid that I'm like, "Yeah, that kid couldn't someday go to medical school if they wanted to or do whatever it is they want." They are all smart. Certainly, your kids are smart. They can do it. They just have to believe in themselves, and they get that belief by borrowing from our belief in them. We believe in them, and they can accomplish whatever it is their mission is in this life. So that's the thing. Praise the effort. Give lots and lots of positives for every negative, and even just bossing around to take out the trash could be seen as a negative. We just want to fill up that emotional bank account with goodness, like Amanda said, so that when we have to make a withdrawal, it doesn't get overdrawn and that connection remains strong.
Kendra Morrison (27:15)
That's so good to think about that bank account, because I know that we talk about that in marriages too, because like we said, Gottman is heavily researched in the marriage relationship, but any relationship really. Just knowing that if you feel like you've made quite a few withdrawals, it's probably time to make a little sum total deposit. That can be with anyone, our colleagues that we work with, because it's already so frustrating sometimes, because definitely our patients make plenty of withdrawals on our emotional stability. But I think this is great for all relationships.
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