Amanda Dinsmore: Welcome back to the podcast. I am Amanda.
Laura Cazier (00:49.27)
I'm Laura.
Kendra Morrison (00:50.627)
And I'm Kendra.
Amanda Dinsmore (00:51.959)
And today we have a special guest star and I'll let Kendra introduce her.
Kendra Morrison (00:57.413)
Yay. Hi, Andrea. We are welcoming Dr. Andrea Austin. She is a leading emergency physician, simulation educator, and advocate for physician well -being and our dear friend too. Let's put it that. As a prior lieutenant commander in the United States Navy, her active duty Navy career included a deployment to Iraq in 2016. She later became the first woman emergency medicine physician stationed at the Navy Trauma Training Center at LA County USC. One of the busiest trauma centers in
the United States. Serving at the forefront of emergency medicine at the Navy Trauma Training Center at LA County USC and significantly affecting military medical personnel training. Dr. Austin advocates for a supportive healthcare culture, emphasizing her commitment to physician well -being and innovation, and she has her own podcast. It's called Heartline. And a coach.
Andrea Austin MD (01:54.669)
Yay! my goodness, you're making me blush!
Amanda Dinsmore (01:59.275)
You did it.
Kendra Morrison (01:59.392)
We are so happy to have you today and so excited that we got to have you on so that you can talk about your recently launched book. It's so exciting.
Andrea Austin MD (02:08.847)
Thank you, yes, what a labor of love.
Kendra Morrison (02:13.317)
So we will dive right in. got a chance to, I haven't read the whole thing, but I've gotten to dig in about 75 % of it. And so some of these are my favorite things that I think would make for great conversation. And just really proud of you for just bringing a lot of this conversation to print and then the opportunity to get to distribute it so that many more people I know are gonna relate to this, not just physicians either. I mean, some of this is really, really important to get out there as just conversations.
conversations.
Amanda Dinsmore (02:45.517)
have a question. Do we know yet? What is the title of the book?
Kendra Morrison (02:49.741)
Revitalized.
Andrea Austin MD (02:51.008)
Yes, Revitalized and the subtitle is a guidebook to following your healing heartline.
Amanda Dinsmore (02:51.371)
Okay, perfect. Did you already say that?
Amanda Dinsmore (02:59.521)
I love that.
Kendra Morrison (03:02.251)
Okay, so in your book, you talk about hyperfunctioning, which we've mentioned on a podcast before hyperfunctioning versus under functioning. And both can be actually a very maladaptive coping strategy. And I'd like to just pull out a little part in your book if that's okay with you, Dr. Austin.
Andrea Austin MD (03:18.171)
Absolutely, and please call me Andrea. I'm among friends today.
Kendra Morrison (03:23.349)
Okay, this is a part I'm not sure what chapter but when you talked about the hyper functioning you said when we talk about hyper functioning in terms of how we think and process it's like our minds are always on overdrive it's as if our brains are like computers with too many apps running simultaneously working around the clock with no downtime this state involves a lot of thinking planning analyzing and worrying of course the worrying kind of like having a bunch of browser tabs open all at once who can relate
people who can relate.
Kendra Morrison (03:57.785)
So talk about this hyperfunctioning.
Andrea Austin MD (04:01.003)
Ooh, you know, I think the sneaky part about hyper -functioning is it's really embedded in the world right now. We're moving at a really fast rate with AI and all sorts of different things that are trying to get us to speed up at warp speed all the time. And then certainly medical culture really runs on hyper -functioning. know, when you think back to, I remember...
cardiology rounds and surgery rounds where you get a list of sometimes 12 or 20 patients you had to round on in the morning. And it was just overwhelming. And you really did have to hyper function to be able to see that number of patients and, you know, turn through all the data on the chart and write notes. So it becomes the new normal, but we're really not meant to hyper function. And people...
wear out at different phases. You know, I know many of you have done some work in the holistic health space, and I truly believe that our cortisol levels at some point, mine were actually measured as almost non -existent, and my little adrenal gland said, girl, we can't do it anymore. And so people hit that wall at different points. You know, for me, it was 2021, and
hyperfunctioning was a big part of what I had to let go of. Now, do I still do it sometimes? mean, the metaphor of the browser tabs being open. The other day I was working on the podcast and then something else related to another job and then this and that. I like literally looked, I had like 30 tabs open and I'm like, just like my book.
Kendra Morrison (05:44.409)
Thank
Kendra Morrison (05:48.709)
I think sometimes it brings us comfort. don't know. Maybe with working as physicians, have Epic open, x -rays we're looking at, bells and whistles in the background, someone coming up, can I get payments? Can I get this? Can I do this? Can you sign this? Can you look at the CKG? I don't know. Maybe that's how we like work our best. I don't know. And then so when we're at home or doing other things, if we don't have 30 browsers open, we're like,
Laura Cazier (05:49.686)
Thank
Amanda Dinsmore (06:17.451)
I think that's, yeah, that is a huge issue that we see over and over with coaching with physicians, you probably do too, Andrea, where like, we're so used to external validation and somehow earning our worth and proving our worth that like we're really uncomfortable, just being a human being just existing, like we are always over proving that we're worthy and that's not the best thing, I don't think. But.
Kendra Morrison (06:17.561)
We start to question our efficacy.
Andrea Austin MD (06:17.754)
Yeah.
Andrea Austin MD (06:45.817)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mentioned it in the book that my friend Kat asked what I was like doing to take care of myself and I started listing out workout things that I was doing. And she's like, Andrea, that's still work. Like that's actually not being still. That's not resting. I was like, you're right. You know, working out in the ways that I tend to gravitate towards is being in constant motion as well.
Amanda Dinsmore (06:47.649)
Yeah.
Amanda Dinsmore (07:00.585)
Yeah.
Amanda Dinsmore (07:15.327)
Yeah, it's funny when we talk about being human beings rather than human doings and like a lot of us are like, well, I'm really good at being a human doing. I don't know about the being part though. But it sounds like from your book that there are some similar issues with the Navy and medical culture. And you talk about specifically serving in the Navy and the challenges while being deployed in Kuwait.
Andrea Austin MD (07:25.635)
writes
Amanda Dinsmore (07:41.347)
Can you tell us a little bit how the military is like medical culture and addressing mental health issues?
Andrea Austin MD (07:48.793)
Yeah, you know, I think something as large as the military, you know, I hesitate to put it all into one basket. There's, you know, pockets that are doing a really fantastic job. And certainly there's wonderful mental health professionals serving the military. That being said, you know, there are still some really big cultural issues that mental health, emotional,
you know, challenges are viewed as weaknesses. And let's face it, you know, the military is about being strong. It's about being warriors. And that has typically looked like a male prototype of being a muscular, strong man, even though that some of the skills the military needs right now are actually not that based on, you know, the world we're living in, the complexities as we look at.
you know, cybersecurity and all the other threats that really don't require the typical prototype that have been in the military. The biggest issue that I highlight in the book is, and I think this is true in medical culture too, is we tend to have this very binary way of thinking about somebody having a mental health problem. So they're either good or defective. The truth is it's a continuum.
Right? So people, we know this, we work in the emergency department, we talk to people having mental health problems every day. People can be chronically suicidal. You know, people can have suicidal thoughts and not have a mental health diagnosis. In fact, people commit suicide that don't meet any diagnostic criteria for a mental health illness. And that level of nuance is hard for organizations.
Amanda Dinsmore (09:26.713)
Thank
Andrea Austin MD (09:44.333)
whether it's the medical board or the military. the last thing I'll say on this is coming back to this idea that not everyone who commits suicide or has suicidal thoughts is mentally ill or has a diagnosis. A lot of times this happens due to toxic work environments. And there is not enough mental health in the world. We're all mental health advocates on this podcast today, but there's
not enough psychiatrists, psychologists, social works therapists that can be added to the medical realm or the military to counteract toxic working conditions. And until we start to address that, then we're not really going to move the needle.
Laura Cazier (10:32.46)
Thank you for saying that.
Andrea Austin MD (10:34.329)
Yeah
Kendra Morrison (10:34.948)
Yeah, I really like how you had in your book, I included an excerpt just that you said that about the military that, you know, it's the culture. So it's not unlike us working in the medical field or the medical culture that we were trained in, that it's tough. mean, the work environment is like probably 80 % of it. And that just that even if you experience a mental health event at some point, like an isolated case of harassment,
Laura Cazier (10:36.268)
So nice to meet
Kendra Morrison (11:04.915)
or bullying, or even just the sleep deprivation that you noted in your book, that that's stressful. And so having a broad idea of mental health support in the military and the medical field, there's no nuance. That's what you said, like a one size fits all approach is not going to work. It really lacks that nuance. And I appreciate that because there, just like you said, there are times when you have an isolated incidence that you, you know, cause you to spy.
or it will trigger a trauma or something and it really needs to have that nuance.
Andrea Austin MD (11:41.251)
Yeah, absolutely. you know, it's interesting. I was working with some residents the last two days in the simulation lab and I went up to the intensive care unit, which we all remember. I see rotations. They're just hard. They work long hours. There's just as the medical system is designed right now, not any way around that. And I started the simulation session with Brene Brown's two word check -in and I said, you know, just two words. How are you feeling right now?
universally the first word was tired or exhausted by everybody. The second word was often pretty negative too. It was like anxious or worried or something like that. And the first time that I did this, like two days ago, I was kind of taken aback. You can tell from the book I'm an empath. So I just kind of sat there and I was like, everybody said two negative words. Should I do the simulation?
You know, so I actually gave a choice and I said, so we can practice central lines or we can go take a walk. We can go get coffee. We can also do central lines and you can cycle out and take breaks. And the interesting thing that happened is they all kind of like looked at me and they said, okay, we're actually good. Can we just...
Amanda Dinsmore (13:00.409)
you
Andrea Austin MD (13:07.269)
do the central lines and they all stayed the entire session. And I'm still kind of like letting that roll over in my mind, but what I think I'm taking away from it and I'll turn it back to you is they just needed the pop -off valve. They just needed somebody to ask. And then they kind of self -soothed and regulated themselves and they were like, actually, you know, probably my anxiety will go down less if I just practice these central lines right now.
Laura Cazier (13:26.785)
Thank
Kendra Morrison (13:34.694)
Yeah, it's interesting you almost get like we talk about getting permission or giving permission like permission to rest taking up whatever it was almost like you validated that you heard that they were exhausted anxious worried whatever and then validated it in your way of just offering okay, well, let's take a breather
Andrea Austin MD (13:55.097)
Yeah. So simple.
Amanda Dinsmore (13:57.389)
Well, I'm so jealous that your trainees have an attending like you, because I don't recall anything like that ever happening, even though I had amazing attendings. I don't think that we were aware. I'm hopeful that we are learning things as time goes on, but what a gift for...
What a gift to just hold space for them, which probably hadn't happened in a long time. So next, we are gonna reference, because we get a little baby shout out in the book. And it's specifically a graph from one of the articles that we had published in Emergency Medicine News about arrival fallacy, which Talbren Shahar in his book Happier coins this term.
Andrea Austin MD (14:32.89)
Yeah.
Laura Cazier (14:34.022)
Yeah.
Amanda Dinsmore (14:52.685)
But how did you adapt it for your book? Or what is it about Arrival Fallacy that was revealing for you to put it in your book?
Andrea Austin MD (15:03.203)
Yeah, so huge shout out. actually mentioned you a few times, the whole physicians, when I say you, I'm saying all of you in the book. So you've definitely shaped a lot of my thinking over the last few years. And I'm really, really thankful for that. And so, you know, the residents that I teach, you know, there are, well, there's very real bits of TWP, even in our sim lab, your poster is there. So,
Amanda Dinsmore (15:06.991)
I think.
Laura Cazier (15:10.199)
Yeah.
Andrea Austin MD (15:31.163)
Yeah, so coming back to that brilliant graph that you introduced me to at the AWEP meeting last year, so the American College of Emergency Physicians Women's Section meeting, it was one of those lectures. I mean, when you think back to like all the lectures that all of us have been at, I mean, at this point, hundreds if not thousands of talks that we've listened to and this
Amanda Dinsmore (15:31.945)
go on, go on.
Laura Cazier (15:34.223)
Thank you.
Andrea Austin MD (16:00.395)
lecture stopped me in my tracks that you gave because it suddenly made, it was one of those moments where you feel like you're in the matrix and you've just seen behind the screen because it was relevant on so many levels. coming back to that, I didn't explicitly say it earlier. When I was in Kuwait, I had some suicidal thoughts that night and I talk about it in the book.
And what bothered me is I never really understood what happened. You know, I went to therapy afterwards, I still go to therapy, and I don't have depression, I don't have anxiety, I don't have a diagnosis that would be in the DSM -5. So then it was kind of like, so what happens? And you know, for us as doctors, it's like, if I don't understand what happened, then that
scares me because it's like could it happen again? And it finally made sense when I looked at that graph because it was like I think what did you call it in the upper left hand corner of I call it the achievement treadmill.
Amanda Dinsmore (17:00.18)
Yeah.
Amanda Dinsmore (17:15.863)
Yeah, so Talbin Shahar calls that the rat race where you're just doing, doing, doing,
Andrea Austin MD (17:19.919)
The rat race. Yeah. Yeah. So I adapted it a few years ago. I started using this feeling of the achievement treadmill because I like the visual of there's times where I feel like I can't, especially when I was in the military, because it's kind of like you got to, you just have to do things. You're not given choices about, you can't quit. I mean, if you quit, you go literally to jail, which is called the brig in the military. So.
There were times that I felt being on the treadmill, I couldn't adjust the speed, how fast I needed to run or the height, you know, how hard. have a really funny story about that. Maybe we'll get to. So treadmill. And so what happened that night on deployment is I fell into the bottom left part of that graph, which was nihilism. And I mean, I know what nihilism is, but I was like, I'm not a nihilistic person. Well,
we can all have nihilistic thoughts. And honestly, I think nihilistic thoughts are very common in emergency medicine. I'm going to work a shift today. I promise you, I'm going to hear somebody say, doesn't really matter. The system's F'd. just they're going to say some nihilistic things today. And so I just fell into the nihilism trap for a little bit that night. And, you know, I was isolated.
Amanda Dinsmore (18:31.416)
What's the point? Absolutely.
Andrea Austin MD (18:47.073)
by myself. Typically when I've had a bad day at work, I come home and I have my husband and my dogs and that just wouldn't happen. So now at least know that nihilism is a very dangerous place to stay for long periods of time.
Laura Cazier (19:07.764)
Yeah, I'm glad that you referenced the being alone. That's such a classic story and such a high risk story that you were telling there. Because doctors who commit suicide, that's exactly what they do. They go, they isolate themselves and tell themselves stories and talk themselves out of life. And I'm really, really grateful that
you were able to pull yourself out of that. That must have been really, really scary.
Amanda Dinsmore (19:43.041)
And thank you for sharing. No, yes, thank you for sharing. Because of that shame, I think that whenever we have, some of us slip into a little brief period of nihilism, then think there's something broken about us when it makes perfect sense when the conditions line up.
Andrea Austin MD (19:43.139)
Yeah, yeah, lots of shame there. Sorry, sorry, Amanda.
Amanda Dinsmore (20:01.079)
Combine that with sleep deprivation, combine that with lots of other things. look, here is an example of someone who has gone on and done amazing things with her life and also had a brief period where she considered the unthinkable, you you're not alone. And so I thank you for sharing that testimony.
Andrea Austin MD (20:25.627)
Yeah, absolutely.
Laura Cazier (20:27.411)
Yeah, think, yeah, those thoughts and feelings are probably more common than we realize. And when your brain, especially when your brain gets so, so exhausted, it's like, I'm gonna get rest however I can. And like, that's the way it thinks of, you know, I can just check out. So yeah. You also mentioned,
the magic equation pain times resistance equals suffering. Pain times resistance, pain equals resistance times suffering. Suffering is inevitable as a part of human experience. Wait, did we get that backwards there? Pain is inevitable. It's part of the human experience. Let's talk about that.
Andrea Austin MD (21:16.793)
Yeah, thank you, TWP, for introducing me to that. And Sheree Johnson also introduced me to this concept too, I think around the same time. I attribute both of you for that. Looking back at the pandemic, I felt like being angry at people not wearing masks or angry at people that were, you know,
posting myths and disinformation and driving up the number of people coming to the emergency department was a form of resistance that I, anger is a very, for me, very alluring emotion. It feels active and, you know, as a hyper functioner, feels like something's happening. But the problem is whatever the thing is, people not wearing masks,
Amanda Dinsmore (21:53.945)
Mm
Laura Cazier (22:01.826)
Mm
Andrea Austin MD (22:10.425)
you know, whatever it is, is still going to happen, which you all know very, well. And on some levels, I knew this, you know, there's an phrase that I've said to my residents over the years that when something terrible is happening to a patient in front of us, you have to go through the stages of grief very quickly and get to acceptance.
because whether it was your fault that the person's getting worse or it was just the progression of their disease, there'll be a time and a place for that, but what is happening is happening and we have to accept that reality and then choose the next best action. So I know that clinically, probably because I'm faced with literally holding someone's life in their hands, in our hands, but outside of clinical work,
It's very easy to get stuck in cycles of rooting or bottling, ruminating, and those are very seductive places to go when we're really upset with various things happening.
Laura Cazier (23:22.018)
Yeah, it feels good. It's sometimes, especially when we feel disempowered to become angry, really does help you feel a little bit more powerful. The problem is, it's like we say we're drinking poison and expecting other people to die because they have no idea. They have 99 % of the time we're not even telling them that we're mad at them. So, and it's not making any difference. So it's just
not super healthy to do long term.
Andrea Austin MD (23:56.219)
Yeah, you know, I think it's balancing though, right? And I'd be interested in what your thoughts are on this because you still have to feel the emotion. You know, I think my gut on this is like, if you look at how long it takes for most emotions to move through you, it's like 90 seconds or, you know, two minutes for the most part. So you got to like, let that happen and attend to yourself. But then after that, it's like, okay, at this point,
I'm disappointed, I am angry, I'm hurt. Based on that, what's the best next step?
Laura Cazier (24:32.78)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think we're talking about the two minutes of rage. It's more like the two weeks of just, you know, feeding ourselves toxic thoughts over and over and over again and just relishing in the rage. That's not, that's just, it's not gonna make us happy people, surprisingly.
Andrea Austin MD (24:41.573)
You
Amanda Dinsmore (24:42.527)
It shouldn't be like that.
Andrea Austin MD (24:49.701)
Mm -hmm.
Amanda Dinsmore (24:55.159)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Our patients dying is painful enough without then raging against the machine and piling more suffering on top of it with that. It shouldn't be this way. Well, you're arguing with reality and I'm telling you that you lose every time. So it's already painful enough. Like let's just make it a multiplier of one so that it's just that amount of pain instead of exponentially more.
Andrea Austin MD (24:56.314)
Yeah.
Laura Cazier (25:04.471)
Right.
Laura Cazier (25:11.062)
break.
I know, it's the pit.
Laura Cazier (25:23.414)
Right, like don't be like Don Quixote fighting the windmills. It's kind of pointless. So we love that you devote an entire chapter to humor. That's our love language right there, Andrea. Thank you. Tell us about that.
Andrea Austin MD (25:40.993)
Yes, so fun. And probably some people are listening like, Andrea is a very serious person. I'm surprised she wrote a chapter on humor. But I love laughing. And I grew up watching sitcoms back in the 90s during the sitcom heyday of Seinfeld. And I love Julie Louis Dreyfus from Seinfeld. And then later Veep is one of my favorite shows of all time.
And I love your meme Mondays. So, you know, they're very, very funny. But like everything, know, humor can have like a dark, I mean, dark humor is a genre. And we have our own version in medicine. We have gallows humor. And everyone here has heard it. I have partaken in gallows humor.
And to make it really clear for people, these are really dark and inappropriate jokes that are made at the expense of patients or other people and other specialties. And what I talk about in the book is I use the rules of comedy. And so the number one rule of comedy is don't punch down. And when you think about us as physicians, there is a...
there's a huge power differential between us and our patients, between us and frankly most staff in the hospital, including medical students and residents. So making sure we're not punching down. And so if it's a joke that you wouldn't say in front of a patient, maybe it's not a good joke to be saying at work, period. I think I love your meme Mondays and don't stop. And I'm not trying to like...
be up on my pedestal about that. But what I have seen from my own self is I think sarcasm in medicine is like a decadent dessert and we should partake in it from time to time and it is a coping mechanism. But if you go back through your DMs and all you send are like, you know, we live
Andrea Austin MD (28:01.403)
There was this meme on deployment of, we live on planet, can I swear on this podcast? Like planet BS or whatever. If that's all you're sending all the time, it does start to affect you. So I would just encourage people to kind of think about that because if you send like 10, like snarky or that's all the videos you watch,
Laura Cazier (28:07.616)
Yeah, we'll just click explicit.
Andrea Austin MD (28:30.383)
going into your shift, you have primed your brain to pretty much think everything is crap. So I would just kind of, you know, think about that. But there's plenty of times you can use adaptive humor. I just coined that term just now. More adaptive humor. You know, I think about honestly our patients, sometimes they open the door to it. And so if a patient opens the door, you got to like use your emotional intelligence.
But frankly, some things that happen to the body are funny. And sometimes like the ridiculousness of our system is so silly. So sometimes it just helps to laugh at it. So I think kind of following the cues of people around you. you know, I used to laugh all the time and be a lot like more lighthearted when I entered medicine. And it was...
you know, over time that I became more armored and more serious. So, you know, as my burnout has diminished, I felt that softening and that lightheartedness return.
Amanda Dinsmore (29:41.121)
I will say on the last meme Monday, I posted a bunch of, we're actually doing a little mini course on relationships. So I had posted like a bunch of like snarky marriage memes all in a row and someone reached out, they were like, are you okay?
Andrea Austin MD (29:58.395)
hahahaha
Amanda Dinsmore (29:59.843)
like, no, I probably should have put it like a, hey, I'm just researching for like a lecture that we're putting together. We're fine. Whoops.
Laura Cazier (30:02.151)
So
Andrea Austin MD (30:09.947)
Yeah.
Laura Cazier (30:13.363)
Yeah, I had that same experience though after recovering from burnout it I did find that really being sarcastic and and dark did did affect me negatively and I was able really to connect with patients better
when I came in wholeheartedly and really, you know, looking at why I was there, what my meaning in being a doctor was and looking at each of my patients as a fellow equal human being helped, really does help so much.
Andrea Austin MD (30:53.083)
Yeah, 100%. And then I think, you we all have to kind of after going through that kind of rehabilitate, like, okay, so how can I incorporate this lighthearted part of me back into this more wholehearted version of me? And, you know, it comes and, you know, now it's so enjoyable when I have these exchanges with patients and my colleagues too.
Laura Cazier (31:25.812)
of that. Yeah, it's you you can find things to joke about that aren't mean. Yeah, there's actually so much that's quite hilarious in the ER that is not me. So thank you. I know. No. Yeah, so many, so many things to to entertain us and and still be kind, loving doctors.
Andrea Austin MD (31:40.047)
Just the sounds alone.
Kendra Morrison (31:55.781)
Well, thank you, Andrea, so much for coming back on our podcast for a little repeat action. Tell our audience how we can get this amazing book that we have highlighted in this podcast.
Laura Cazier (31:56.278)
you
Andrea Austin MD (32:06.585)
Yes, thank you so much. So you can go to my website, andreaaustinmd .com, and there's two options for you there. You can select a button to request an autographed copy, and I will send one to you there. Or you can go to Amazon if you'd prefer that, but there's no way for me to sign it if you order directly from Amazon, but that's totally fine. I love the immediacy of Amazon, and it's a good option.
And there's the Kindle ebook version. And soon I'll have other options available like Barnes & Noble and I hope to have bookshops .org soon. And then lastly, the audio book. I'll probably wait until January. So if you're a person that listens to books and planning to drop it with the new year kind of for people that kind of want something that would help with that new year vibe.
Kendra Morrison (32:59.617)
Awesome. And this book isn't just for physicians. Like we said, it has got a lot of great information for all professionals, moms that stay at home, there's just a lot of goodness in there. So you could really not go wrong if you're looking for some Christmas presents. I know, aren't we starting that right now? We're shopping for Christmas, right? So here you go. You're welcome. We have already given you a gift. So please, please, please go out and buy your book. And thank you so much again, Andrea, for the work that
you're doing not only paving the way and being a mentor to the residents and interns medical students everyone in the sim lab for just really taking it to the next level re reframing and restructuring what it looks like to really grow up that next generation of competent clinical physicians that actually know how to take care of themselves too so thank you thank you for the work that you do and for taking care of patients and for just being a part of this circle who really does care
about physician well -being and are looking to do the meaningful things that will really help our colleagues out. So thank you very much.
Andrea Austin MD (34:06.745)
Right back at all of you and all the great work that you're doing. Thank you so much.
Kendra Morrison (34:12.023)
Absolutely. So if something in this podcast has helped you, please leave us a review, scroll down, give us a five star rating and leave a review because it helps just make our ripple that much bigger. And until next time, you are whole, you are a gift to medicine and the work you do matters.
